Equal Pay: NIO/PSNI

Oral Answers to Questions – in the Northern Ireland Assembly at 2:45 pm on 9 June 2014.

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Photo of Ross Hussey Ross Hussey UUP 2:45, 9 June 2014

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the equal pay claim from Northern Ireland Office and PSNI administrative staff. (AQO 6287/11-15)

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

It was clearly established in court that the equal pay settlement applied only to periods of service in the Northern Ireland Civil Service and did not apply to bodies such as the NIO and PSNI.  So there is no valid equal pay claim.  However, I am aware how strongly affected staff feel about this issue, and I have worked to find a way in which the moral argument that has been raised could be recognised in some way.  As a consequence of that work, I recently circulated a paper to my Executive colleagues outlining a recommendation that will result, I hope, in a satisfactory resolution of the issue for this group of staff.  The recommendation and any expenditure will require the agreement of the Executive.

Photo of Ross Hussey Ross Hussey UUP

Unfortunately, I did not quite hear the full response from the Minister.  Is he aware that the rumour is that the proposal from the Minister has been put forward to the Executive and that he has said that it will take weeks to get through the Executive?  Do we have a rough indication of when he expects this matter to be resolved?

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

The Member, I am sure, would not expect me to operate on the basis of rumours.  All I can say to the Member, the House and, more importantly, to those affected members of staff is that I have done the work that I need to do on putting forward a suggested solution, as it is at this stage, to Executive colleagues.  The paper has been with the Executive for a number of weeks now.  I understand the frustrations that some members of staff will be experiencing because of what they perceive as yet further delay in resolving this issue.  I have done my bit.  As I said, I have drafted a solution, and it has circulated around Executive colleagues.  I await the agreement of Executive colleagues for that to come forward for debate and discussion at the Executive, and, hopefully, agreement to the solution that I have put forward. 

On estimating how long that will take, I hope that it will be resolved and, indeed, it should be resolved as a matter of urgency, given the widespread support that there supposedly has been for a resolution over the last number of months.  Because of that, I expect that it should be dealt with fairly quickly, but, as the Member will appreciate, not everything moves through the Executive as quickly as we would like.  In that respect, even if I wanted to or were able to, I cannot put a clear guess or a clear estimate on when it might come forward for agreement, although I hope that it does so very soon.

Photo of Dominic Bradley Dominic Bradley Social Democratic and Labour Party

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle.  Can the Minister clarify to the House that all groups, including home civil servants at AA and AO grade, have been consulted and have agreed to any proposed settlement?

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

I am not going to get into the detail of what is being put forward in the paper.  What is in the paper and the detail that is included is still a matter of confidence between Executive colleagues and me.  There has been no consultation, to use his word, about the specific paper that has gone forward other than, I have to say, I have listened very carefully to representations by, for example, Members of this House on behalf of affected staff.  I have received much correspondence from affected staff since taking up post in late July of last year.  So, in that sense, I have been listening constantly to representations about the need to deal with this issue conclusively.  Although there may not be, as I mentioned previously in the House, a legal argument for dealing with this, there is a need to recognise the very strong moral argument that has been put forward.  I hope that what is there in respect of a suggested solution not only meets with Executive colleagues' favour but will be welcomed by those staff affected and will draw a line under this issue.

Photo of Robin Newton Robin Newton DUP

Minister, you have indicated that you have submitted a paper for the consideration of your Executive colleagues.  Can you indicate to the House the extent of the support that there has been, or has not been, from your Executive colleagues thus far?

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

I have received responses to my paper from roughly half of the Executive.  I have received responses from Ministers representing our own party, the Alliance Party, the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP.  Many of the responses have highlighted issues around the detail of the paper, which I welcome, because it is important that Executive colleagues feed back any concerns that perhaps have been represented to them by affected staff and seek clarification of how any scheme might work.  That is to be welcomed and is a positive response.  The responses have ranged from enquiries of that nature up to outright enthusiasm for the suggested solution that I have put forward. 

To date, I have received no responses from Ministers representing Departments where Sinn Féin Ministers are in charge, so I am unsure of their position.  However, I seek some solace from the fact that members of that party — particularly those on the Finance and Personnel Committee, where the issue has been voiced most strongly over the last year, 18 months and beyond — have been supportive of a solution.  I hope that their support rubs off on their ministerial colleagues, and that they come forward with support for the solution that I have put to the Executive.

Photo of Phil Flanagan Phil Flanagan Sinn Féin

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, and, as a member of the Finance and Personnel Committee, I certainly will not speak on your behalf.  I am sure that the Minister is aware that a large number of retired civil servants are very disgruntled that the settlement is a belated response for people who were discriminated against throughout their careers and who are still waiting for justice.  Will the Minister clarify whether the paper that he has submitted deals solely with those in the PSNI and the NIO or whether it includes the small number of workers in NI Water who are in a very similar situation?

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

The paper that is before the Executive deals exclusively with PSNI and former NIO staff.  It does not deal with the NI Water situation, as that is a matter for the Minister for Regional Development.  I am very keen to see this resolved as quickly as possible.  Early on in my tenure in office, I made the commitment to affected staff that I would reopen the issue and take a look at it again.  I think I owe them that at the very least.  I have been able to find a way to resolve the issue satisfactorily, and I hope that the Member, having been brave enough to rise and ask the question, can now impress upon his party colleagues in the Executive the importance of recognising the very points that the Member has made in respect of the moral argument that something has to be done for the staff who have been affected, and that they, too, can come forward with their support and that that support is not only forthcoming but forthcoming in a rapid fashion so that the issue can be dealt with conclusively.

Photo of Jim Allister Jim Allister Traditional Unionist Voice

The Minister knows how perplexing this matter, and the inordinate delay, has been for the affected staff.  Do I discern from what the Minister said that, whereas he has proffered a paper to the Executive, it has so far been blocked from being tabled for discussion by Sinn Féin, the party that likes to talk the most about equality in the House — and this is an equality issue?  Is the Minister gently saying to us that expectations, for example, that this might have been dealt with in the June monitoring round are now to be dashed because of that obstruction?

Photo of Simon Hamilton Simon Hamilton DUP

The Member is always less gentle than I would be in the use of terminology, which is something that I pride myself on. 

It is not right to conclude that this could not be dealt with in the June monitoring round; it could still be dealt with.  Submissions of bids by Departments for inclusion in the June monitoring round only concluded at the tail end of last week, and they have yet to be deliberated on by the Executive.  I hope to do that at our next meeting, which is in about 10 days' time.  I suppose that there is the possibility — I will put it no more strongly than that — that this could be dealt with at that point.  Of course, as the Member has rightly identified and as he will understand and appreciate, because there is an expenditure element, the proposal that I have put forward would require a considerable amount of expenditure, which would have to happen within a tight monetary and budgetary context as well.  It will require the agreement of all sides and all parts of the Executive to do that.  The fact that every party in the House has come forward with support for a resolution to the problem bodes well for agreement at Executive level now that a viable solution has been put before them.  So I remain optimistic that this can be agreed, and I share the hope of the Member and, I am sure, the rest of the House that this could be resolved in the short timetable that the Member has spoken about.