North/South Ministerial Council: Language
Northern Ireland Assembly debates, 2 July 2002, 1:00 pm
I have received notice from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure that he wishes to make a statement on the North/South Ministerial Council sectoral meeting on language, which was held on 14 June 2002 in Dublin.
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
I wish to report on the fourth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in language sectoral format, held on Friday 14 June 2002 in Farmleigh, Dublin. Following nomination by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, I attended the meeting as an Executive representative, with the accompanying Minister, Ms Bairbre de Brún. The Irish Government were represented by Mr Eamon Ó Cuív, Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, who also chaired the meeting. Ms de Brún has approved the report, and it is made on her behalf also.
The meeting began with oral progress reports on the body’s activities by Seosamh Mac Donncha, chief executive of Foras na Gaeilge, and George Holmes, the deputy chief executive of Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch. The report covered areas such as corporate and business planning, the activity report for 2002, the equality scheme, the code of conduct for board members, and administrative issues on staffing and accommodation.
The Council welcomed the progress of the North/ South Language Body and its two agencies, as well as the volume of work that those agencies carried out to date. The Council received updates on the business plans of Foras na Gaeilge and Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch.
The business plan for Foras na Gaelige describes the activities that it intends to undertake in 2002 to address the key challenges and objectives in its strategic plan, as well as the resources that it will employ. That includes the work to be undertaken on: state culture and heritage; communications and marketing, community and business; education services such as the English/Irish dictionary; and corporate planning, which includes the establishment of a Belfast office.
The business plan for 2002 for Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch is aligned with its corporate plan 2001-03 on four strategic themes: linguistic diversity; culture; education; and public understanding of Ulster-Scots language and culture. That plan identifies resources, objectives, key deliverables, targets and impacts associated with activities that are related to the four themes. Those activities will include projects such as: a tape-recorded survey of native speakers; production of a textbook for written Ulster-Scots; compilation of a dictionary; a programme of cultural activities and development of formal academic courses.
The Council considered and noted the progress reports on the corporate planning issues that relate to Foras na Gaeilge and Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch, and it looked forward to the presentation of the finalised corporate plans for both agencies at the next language sector North/South Ministerial Council meeting.
The Council considered and approved the content of the draft activity reports for both agencies for the period 2 December 1999 to 31 December 2000. Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch’s activities during the year included the creation of the first ever three-year strategy for the agency and a partnership agreement between the agency and the University of Ulster to establish the Institute of Ulster-Scots Studies at Magee College.
The Council also noted the draft unaudited accounts for both agencies, and noted that further work is required before the statement of accounts for the language body can be submitted to the Comptrollers and Auditors General in both jurisdictions for formal audit.
The Council considered and approved the draft equality scheme for the language body, and that has been subjected to public consultation. The Council agreed to submit the draft equality scheme to the Equality Commission, and approved an amalgamated code of conduct for the language body’s board members.
The Council agreed to meet again in this sectoral format in Northern Ireland in October or November 2002.
I thank the Minister for his report and all those who were involved in its production. There has clearly been an attempt to progress matters apace. I am particularly pleased to see the emphasis on Ulster Scots and the work that has been done for the board. I was disappointed to note that there was no mention of filling the post of chief executive of the Ulster-Scots Agency. Given that the North/South Ministerial Council approved the filling of that vacancy on 7 December 2001 and the Department has not yet advertised it, will the Minister tell the House what is causing the delay, when the post will be advertised, and when the position might be filled?
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
On 7 December 2001 the process for appointing a chief executive was approved, and it will be completed shortly. The agency has an obligation to fill this key post. A steering group has been set up that includes representatives from the two sponsor Departments and the board. PricewaterhouseCoopers was appointed by the board to handle the recruitment process. The group met recently, and I look forward to the recruitment process coming to fruition.
Dr Ian Adamson (UUP)
I congratulate the North/South Ministerial Council for holding its meeting in such a beautiful cultural treasure as the former Guinness home at Farmleigh.
Coud A speir at the Meinister whit he thinks is the neist stap forrit for Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch?
Could I ask the Minister what he thinks is the next step forward for the Ulster-Scots Agency?
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
The agency is responsible and answerable for its own actions by agreement with the Department and the North/South Ministerial Council, and through them to the House. The agency has a three-year corporate plan, which has recently been reviewed and extended to 2005. It sets out four strategic themes on linguistic diversity, culture, education and public understanding. The agency is taking the following steps: a tape-recorded survey of native speakers; a textbook; a dictionary; a programme of cultural activity; and the development of formal academic courses. Unlike Foras na Gaeilge and its predecessor Bord na Gaeilge, the Ulster-Scots Agency has been in existence for only two and a half years, and it has made enormous strides.
The agency is an implementation body; it implements the policy determined by the Department in consultation with the House and through the North/South Ministerial Council. One of the next steps forward will be to focus and refine that policy, and the agency is ready for that. The Department should focus its policy drive on efforts to support and reinforce the work of the agency. That will be done in the same way as the Department has focused on policy for football, libraries and other areas. The "future search" process will begin in September and will be completed by Christmas. The Department will define work with the agency and ensure that each element feels some ownership of the process. In September the agency plans a forward surge in the implementation plan. The agency’s policy framework will be worked out in tandem with the implementation plan.
Mr Maurice Morrow (DUP)
Some time ago, Dr Adamson asked the Minister how many times the linguistic diversity branch of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure had met with the Ulster-Scots language groups. The Minister said that there had been five meetings. However, the Ulster-Scots Language Society wrote subsequently to the permanent secretary in the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to seek clarification. The answer revealed that there had been no meetings with Ulster-Scots language groups. None of the five meetings that the permanent secretary identified, concerned language policy, which is the remit of the branch, and two of the meetings on the list were with the Apprentice Boys of Derry. Will the Minister acknowledge that he misled the Assembly and that there have been no meetings in the past year on the Ulster-Scots policy? Will he set the record straight?
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
I will attempt to reply. Having Mr Morrow present for a language or Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure event is rare indeed.
Several meetings have taken place between the Department and the Ulster-Scots Agency. There has also been correspondence between the Department and that body. Mr Morrow makes a distinction between the language and the agency which is not clear. I will check the record for the quotations that concern him. The Member needs to be absolutely sure what he is asking about. For example, do his comments relate to the question that I was asked originally?
I had a meeting in the Department around the end of June with the Ulster-Scots Agency and the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council. Several bodies are involved, and there is cross-membership. For example, Mr Nelson McCausland, of the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council, members of the Ulster-Scots Agency, including John Laird and others were present at that meeting. The meetings, and a large body of correspondence, are on the record. Those meetings are formal meetings that take place in locations such as Belfast city hall on a fairly regular basis. My special adviser and I attend.
It might be helpful for Mr Morrow to note that the overarching policy is defined by the agreement and the Council of Europe Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. With regard to the Irish language in particular, the British Government signed up in the agreement to
"where appropriate and where people so desire it: take resolute action to promote the language; facilitate and encourage the use of the language".
Now that the British Government have signed the Council of Europe Charter for Regional and Minority Languages, I take part II of that Charter to refer to Ulster Scots as well as the Irish language. Therefore, based on part II of the Charter and the agreement, the overarching policy for Ulster Scots also requires the Government to
"where appropriate and where people so desire it: take resolute action to promote the language; facilitate and encourage the use of the language; .. seek to remove, where possible, restrictions".
The Department will seek to refine that policy during the autumn through a process with the constituency in full. The Ulster-Scots language is a part of the constituency; it is by no means most or all of it, but it is an important part. I will work with Ulster-Scots activists as we refine the policy, seeking to use the plan for the implementation body, which is essentially what the Ulster-Scots Agency is.
Rev Dr Ian Paisley (DUP)
On a point of order, Mr speaker is in charge of proceedings of the House of Commons in..." class="glossary">Deputy Speaker, the permanent secretary wrote to a body to say that what the Minister said was not true. Surely the permanent secretary and the Minister cannot both be right. There must be some way to find out the truth.
Mr Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin)
Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh ráiteas an Aire agus ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis as. Tá mé iontach sásta go bhfuil obair na comhairle ag gabháil ar aghaidh ar an leibhéal seo.
I welcome the fourth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in language sectoral format. I ask the Minister to consider providing future urgent questions,..." class="glossary">ministerial statements on these meetings bilingually — in English and Irish — for the benefit of Members who may wish to avail of them in that format.
When will the finalised corporate plan of Foras na Gaeilge be made public, and can the Minister provide a progress report on the establishment of the Belfast office? Sin an méid.
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
I understand that Foras na Gaeilge has acquired an office in Queen Street, Belfast, and that it intends to station the deputy chief executive and the director of education there. The draft corporate plan will be available soon for presentation to the North/South Ministerial Council, I hope that it will be ready for the next meeting.
As for bilingual presentation, I present the plans as they are. As Gaelic is the working language of Foras na Gaeilge, I am sure that it can present its corporate plan in Gaelic, but I cannot be certain. My report comes as you see it.
Mr Roger Hutchinson (DUP)
The Minister was right when he said that last year the United Kingdom Government signed and ratified the Council of Europe Charter for Regional and Minority Languages. Under that charter the Government committed itself to consult, and take into account the views of, the Ulster-Scots language movement. Will he admit that his own civil servants in the linguistic diversity branch, who are responsible for language policy in Northern Ireland, did not meet or liaise with the Ulster-Scots Language Society or the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council even once during the past year? Will he acknowledge that that is clearly a breach of the charter?
That is not directly related to the ministerial statement. I will allow the Minister to make his own judgement.
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
Perhaps Mr Hutchinson was not here for the previous answer. What do we mean by "the language movement"? Do we define it as the Ulster-Scots Language Society? Is it the Ulster-Scots Language Society with the heritage movement? Or do we define it as the whole Ulster-Scots language constituency, which is broadly represented through the Ulster-Scots Agency, our implementation body?
Mr Hutchinson should be aware that there is a sizeable constituency of native speakers who regard themselves as being somewhat marginalized by what they see as a middle-class, academic, Belfast-based, English-speaking wing of the constituency. It is important that the entire constituency be represented, and their views taken into account.
As far as honing and refining policy is concerned, policy is defined by those sections of the Belfast Agreement concerning rights, safeguards and equality of opportunity, and is carried through by the European charter. That is the overarching policy. Of course, it is proper and appropriate that we should look to refine that policy, and now is the time to do that.
The agency has made enormous strides over the last two and a half years, and now is the time for another step forward. The way to do that is through a process that we have used in other sections and sectors of the Department: a "future search" process. I will look to further refine the policy in the autumn to allow the agency to implement it. Within that, the entire constituency will be represented.
We have had ongoing discussions with Members. However, if someone says that today he is the language, and not the heritage, society but tomorrow he will be the heritage, and not the language, society, it is difficult to distinguish. It is in Belfast; it is a small constituency. We are not always clear exactly which group we are talking to. However, we deal with the implementation body — the Ulster-Scots Agency.
Mr Wilson Clyde (DUP)
Can the Minister give a commitment that he intends to move towards equal funding for Ulster-Scots and Irish language and culture? Will he also indicate the timescale in which he intends that position of equality to be reached?
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
As far as funding under devolution and under the agreement is concerned, Ulster-Scots contributions pre-devolution were £118,000, and, post-devolution, we are projected to go to £1·6 million. We have increased the funding approximately tenfold. That is important.
This is not about money, however. We are often inclined to condense arguments and movements down to money. Ulster Scots is at a different stage of development vis-à-vis Irish. Foras na Gaeilge took over the old Bord ne Gaeilge; it took over the terminology committee, a publishing house and an education support movement. That was an advanced, sophisticated group that had been going for approximately 150 years, 50 years in its current form. Ulster Scots is in a different situation; it is largely up to date and, with some exceptions, is primarily an oral tradition. We have been seeing Ulster Scots grow during the last two and a half years.
It would be wrong simply to say that because Irish gets so many million pounds, Ulster Scots should get the same. Under parity of esteem, which is equal respect, we will ensure that everybody gets equality of opportunity and equality of treatment and that funding will be according to need. Need is the key determinant factor. To date, the Ulster-Scots Agency and the Ulster-Scots movement have been funded according to need, and then some.
We now take the next step forward and consider policy development. I welcome input from Mr Clyde, Mr Morrow and Mr Roger Hutchinson and their support for Ulster Scots as a language and a movement. I will ensure that they are invited to engage in the process, and they can put forward their ideas for developing the Ulster-Scots language and culture then. It is important that we refine the policy. That will have resource implications, and we will look at those in due course. Need is always the guiding principle. There must be equality of opportunity and equity of treatment in dealing with that need, and we must be guided by equal respect.
Mr Gardiner Kane (DUP)
Will the Minister acknowledge that the Ulster-Scots Agency has been extremely unhappy with the interventions of civil servants from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure in its work, which are seen as unhelpful and intrusive? Will the Minister also acknowledge that such concerns have been expressed directly to him, and will he comment on the basis of those concerns?
Mr Kane, I must remind you and all Members that those questions are not related directly to the statement. For that reason, I will leave it up to the Minister whether he responds.
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
I am happy to respond to Mr Kane, who has shown an interest in Ulster Scots over the past two and a half years. I do not agree that the Department’s actions have been unhelpful and intrusive. The Department is here to support the agency, as it is here to support Foras na Gaeilge. They are essentially about running their own affairs and constituencies. We only step in if they ask for our help. There have been occasions over the past two and a half years when our help has been sought and has been readily given.
There are teething problems, to be expected in a new body. It has made progress, but we all accept that it has still some way to go. It has still to appoint a full-time chief executive — Mr ONeill asked about that earlier. That is a pressing need and has been for some time. It also has to get full-time staff. It has identified Raphoe for its office in the Irish Republic. It has offices on a short-term lease in Belfast, and it has to move forward.
There will always be people who will say that something is unhelpful or intrusive. Mr Kane would not expect me to allow bodies to carry on doing exactly what they want without any overview. Mr Kane would complain if I were to do that with the Irish language, just as Mr McElduff would complain if I were to do that with Ulster Scots. There must be an element of accountability, not least for the resources that taxpayers are devoting to both those organisations.
The Ulster-Scots Agency has made progress, and it has also made mistakes. It will continue to make progress, and I will support, reinforce and sustain progress on Ulster Scots.
Mr David Hilditch (DUP)
The Ulster-Scots Agency and the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council have initiated the development of a strategic plan for Ulster-Scots culture, which will complement the existing plan for the Ulster-Scots language. That will bring together and build on previous work undertaken by both bodies and is due to be completed by the end of September. Will the Minister assure us that adequate resources will be secured to enable that plan to be implemented, and will he acknowledge that the differential between the funding of the Ulster-Scots language and culture and the Gaelic language and culture is discriminatory, is a breach of the equality agenda and cannot be sustained?
Mr Michael McGimpsey (UUP)
I will take the last point first. It is not discriminatory. One body is not funded according to the funding of another body — it is not the case that if Irish does well, Ulster-Scots does well; if Irish does badly, Ulster-Scots does badly. It is done according to need and to ensure that everyone is given the same equality of opportunity and has equity of treatment and parity of esteem, which is equality of respect. Everyone is given the same opportunity to go forward.
By Mr Hilditch’s argument, if the Irish body made a bad case for funding, Ulster Scots would suffer, and I do not accept that. Foras na Gaeilge is essentially the old Bord na Gaeilge, which has been operating in the Irish Republic for over 50 years, plus its constituent parts. In effect, there was a ready-made department, and the funding reflects that.
The Ulster-Scots Agency began from a standing start. The funding that I have argued for and obtained for Ulster Scots is now 10 times what it was two and a half years ago before devolution. That is a measure of the benefits of devolution.
Ulster Scots, like Irish, benefits from the Belfast Agreement. The Belfast Agreement, through its references to Irish and the European Charter of Regional and Minority Languages, ensured that Ulster Scots was recognised formally for the first time as a language. The United Kingdom Government signed and ratified the charter last year. Ulster Scots is defined as a language under the European charter, and that is the end of the argument. Two and a half years ago there were arguments about whether it was a language.
There is debate, argument and a bit of jostling in the Ulster-Scots constituency. However, it is important that those people who have carried the torch for so long make room for others who have an interest, not least the native speakers who sometimes feel that their movement, culture, heritage and tradition are being hijacked. I am anxious to avoid that.
As regards policies for bodies such as the Ulster-Scots Heritage Council, they are free-standing organisations, so they can perform as they wish. I am responsible for the Ulster-Scots Agency, which implements departmental policy in consultation with the North/South Ministerial Council. Although it has performed that function, it has been concerned primarily with getting off the ground. I shall remind Members of some of its work.
It aims to produce an Ulster-Scots textbook and to compile an Ulster-Scots dictionary, because neither exists at present. Those are glaring needs, but their absence is understandable, given that to date the language has been preserved through oral tradition. Its tape-recorded survey of native speakers will be important, because when native speakers die, we lose the language. The programme to develop cultural activities, making essential connections with the Ulster-Scots diaspora, is crucial also. Those projects are in the early stages of development.
I have highlighted to the agency the glaring need for capacity building in the Ulster-Scots constituency, because several groups have grown up but are not getting the support that they merit and require. They do not have sufficient skills, so they are unable to chase funding from the Ulster-Scots Agency or other bodies.
Funding is available: the question is how much the agency is spending. There should not be an argument about money. There is an opportunity for the Ulster-Scots Agency, and Ulster-Scots as a movement, a people, a culture and a heritage, to develop rather than argue about money. As long as I am in the job, I shall ensure that there is parity of esteem, equal respect, equality of opportunity and equity of treatment. It is my job to ensure that those requirements are met.