Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Lords at 5:15 pm on 3 March 2008.

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Photo of Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Ministry of Justice, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice 5:15, 3 March 2008

We have had an interesting debate more like that held at Second Reading rather than on the detail of the amendment before us, and it is none the worse for that. I know that noble Lords would love to see a Select Committee set up to consider this issue in greater detail, and I shall come on to that in a moment. First, however, I want to say to noble Lords that this clause has had substantial consideration. It was consulted on widely through the consultation held on the case for a new offence in 2005, which was followed by publication of a summary of the responses to that consultation and then the Government's conclusions in 2006. In addition, when the Bill was considered in the other place, the Public Bill Committee took evidence from a number of witnesses. There was also considerable discussion in Committee. Indeed, the reason I am bringing forward a number of amendments today is because they reflect the discussions held in the other place, which shows that parliamentary scrutiny is indeed working.

I understand that noble Lords would like to see more consideration of this matter. I do not know whether it would help but, if between Committee and Report noble Lords would like me to arrange a meeting to go through this issue in detail, I would be happy to do so. I am sure that they would then be able to access as much information as I can produce in advance of further discussion on Report. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, I should say that the Conservative Party welcomed the consultation on this matter, and indeed the submissions made by Mr Tim Loughton and the right honourable Mrs Theresa May supported the Government's determination to address abuse of the internet in order to gain access to extreme images of violence and pornography.

I understand the balance that must be struck between freedom of choice, individual freedom and the "thought police" on the one hand, and the potential ill effects of pornography, particularly some of the most appalling pornography we are discussing here, on the other. I do not think anyone would claim that it is easy to get the balance right, or that we will have unanimity of opinion. However, I stress that this is not a debate about the rights and wrongs of pornography in the round but about the wide availability of extreme or violent pornography, particularly with the growth of the internet, which because it is often produced in other countries is not covered by the current legislation. That is the reason we are here today and debating what I accept is a very difficult matter.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that the material we are seeking to make it illegal to possess, after consultation with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service, is that which would normally be subject to prosecution under the Obscene Publications Act were it to be published or distributed. The controls in that Act are more easily evaded by the use of modern technology, which, as I said earlier, also makes the material easy to produce.

I stress that this is not targeting sexual arousal or pornography per se; it is but one of the elements contained in the Bill and is subject to the changes that will be made as a result of the government amendments. The elements of the test, in a sense, are that it must be an extreme pornographic image which is grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise of an obscene character. An image would only fall under this provision if it portrays in an explicit and realistic way any of the following: an act which threatens a person's life; an act which results, or is likely to result, in serious injury to a person's anus, breast or genitals; an act which involves sexual interference with a human corpse; or a person performing an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal, whether dead or alive.

Of course there will be debate about whether this captures precisely what we want to capture and whether it will cause difficulties in interpretation. I understand that. All I seek to illustrate is that we are talking about some of the most extreme pornography there can be.

On the question of evidence, I was very interested in the comments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Howarth and Lady Howe. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, referred to the evidence of violence on television, which has been ongoing for more than 40 years. I have referred to the key findings of the rapid evidence assessment research—I know noble Lords have read it—which supported the existence of some harmful effects from extreme pornography on some who access it: the increased risk of developing pro-rape attitudes, beliefs and behaviours and committing sexual offences. Although the research assessment said that this was also true of some pornography which did not meet the extreme pornography threshold, it showed that the effects of extreme pornography were more serious.

Men who were predisposed to aggression or have a history of sexual or other aggression were more susceptible to the influence of extreme pornographic material. This was corroborated by a number of different studies using different methods and different samples. It is true that the REA found no formal research studies of these effects on those who participate in making extreme pornography, but the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, was surely right when she, essentially, reported on her organisation's experience with individual men; it seems plain common sense that this awful stuff must have a negative, adverse impact on some of the people viewing it.

The freedom of individuals to view these materials in the privacy of their own homes is a difficult issue—and this legislation will involve a restriction—but our defence is that the material that we intend to target is at the extreme end of the spectrum and which we believe most people would find abhorrent. Of course there will be debates on this and I accept that this is a restriction, but the Government believe that it is an acceptable restriction.

The noble Baroness asked about the context in which it is viewed. If she is watching one of these images but is creating a dish chopping onions, in what context is it? The context means "that in which the image sits". In other words, is it a brief viewing within a film or is it a part of a series of pornographic images? It is not in the context of chopping onions but in the context of the clip and the film. I suspect the noble Baroness knew that really.

On the exclusion of material made by consenting adults—

Annotations

Sean Goldthorpe
Posted on 4 Mar 2008 5:14 pm (Report this annotation)

Lord Hunts claim that the new offence would not target sexual arousal per se is mendacious and misleading.
Under the Bill, it will remain lawful to own, and even display publicly, extreme, violent images to inform (TV news), to sell (advertising), to excite (mainstream films and video games) and to worship (crucifix). But material "intended to provoke sexual arousal" will be contraband, punishable by three years imprisonment.
Sexual arousal is primarily a state of mind. This Bill will introduce an hypocritical, Orwellian "Thought Crime" into Law. The State will be punishing people severely for their assumed state of mind.

David Clark
Posted on 4 Mar 2008 8:15 pm (Report this annotation)

I agree with Sean. The problem with the way this is going is that we will once again return to the question of what is offensive (J S Mill's harm principle all over again). You will not know whether you have broken the law until the jury decides. What people do in the privacy of their own homes should be up to them provided they do not harm others. There must be a clear link between this material and harm.