New Clause 3 — Provision of benefits information

Water Bill – in the House of Commons at 6:15 pm on 6 January 2014.

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‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about the disclosure of benefits information about occupiers to water undertakers and sewerage undertakers in connection with section 144C of the Water Industry Act 1991 (non-owner occupiers).

(2) In this section “benefits information” means information which is held for benefit entitlement purposes by the Department for Work and Pensions.’.—(Miss McIntosh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Photo of Lindsay Hoyle Lindsay Hoyle Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs, Chairman of Ways and Means, Chair, Panel of Chairs

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 7—National affordability scheme—

‘(1) The Secretary of State must, by order, introduce a National Affordability Scheme for water.

(2) The National Affordability Scheme must include an eligibility criteria, determined by the Secretary of State, in consultation with—

(a) the Water Services Regulation Authority; and

(b) the Consumer Council for Water.

(3) An order under this section—

(a) shall be made by statutory instrument; and

(b) may not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before and approved by resolution of each House of Parliament.’.

New clause 8—Billing information: affordability—

‘Any company providing water services to a residential household must include on its bills

(a) details of any tariffs provided by that company;

(b) a recommendation of the lowest possible tariff for each residential household; and

(c) information regarding eligibility criteria and how to make an application for assistance under Water Sure.’.

New clause 9—Provision of information to water companies: landlords—

‘(1) The Water Industry Act 1991 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 207 (Provision of false information) there is inserted—

“Provision of information to water companies: landlords

Where a water company does not have information about a resident in a property that is using water, if the occupants of that property are tenants, the landlord must, on request, provide to the water company contact details for the tenants.”.’.

New clause 10—Water companies: recovery of losses—

‘(1) The Secretary of State, or the Authority, may prohibit losses to a water company due to non-payment of bills from being recovered through charges on customers.

(2) This section comes into force on the day after the Secretary of State has laid before Parliament a report setting out how water companies have failed to take action on these matters,’,

Amendment 9, in clause 80, page 124, line 1, at end insert—

‘(e) section [Provision of benefits information].’.

Photo of Anne McIntosh Anne McIntosh Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee

I wish to consider new clause 3 and amendment 9, which seek to address legislation already on the statute books in the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. I remind the House that the cost of bad debt to each household in England is approximately £15 per annum, and in times of great hardship and a period of austerity, which the Government are dealing with through the actions we continue to take, it is incumbent on the Government to consider every opportunity to defray the costs to each household in that regard.

New clause 3 seeks to provide benefits information by allowing the Secretary of State to regulate to

“make provision about the disclosure of benefits information about occupiers” to water and sewerage companies in connection with the revised part of the Water Industry Act 1991. It goes on to state that

“‘benefits information’ means information which is held for benefit entitlement purposes by the Department for Work and Pensions.”

Amendment 9 would make the consequential change to the current clause 80, to allow the provision of benefits information. I sat where Thomas Docherty is currently sitting and followed the passage of the Flood and Water Management Bill as closely as he is following the passage of this Bill. I have been very taken with the idea of trying to reduce bad debt in this way. recently, I was most fortunate to receive a written answer from the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend Mike Penning, who helpfully told me that at present the legislation does not permit the transfer and provision of benefits information by the Department for Work and Pensions in the way I wish. He did not say it could not be done; he said only that the current law does not permit it. We are where we are.

Photo of John Redwood John Redwood Conservative, Wokingham

To help the House, will my hon. Friend explain what kind of information she would like to see transferred and how it would help?

Photo of Anne McIntosh Anne McIntosh Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee

I hope that my right hon. Friend will bear with me as I take the House through it.

In the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee report on the draft Bill, we reiterated our previous recommendations that the Department should implement without delay the existing provisions of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 on bad debt, to which I have referred. In our view, it is unacceptable for honest customers to be forced to subsidise those who can pay but refuse to pay their water bills. To answer my right hon. Friend’s question, the specific provision is section 45 of the 2010 Act, which introduces new section 144C to the Water Industry Act 1991. That is what we propose in new clause 3, which would require landlords to arrange for information on their tenants to be provided to water companies.

Instead of implementing the existing bad debt provisions, the Government currently rely on a voluntary approach, whereby landlords share information on tenants on an online database set up by the water companies. Before I go further on the voluntary approach, it might be helpful to ask my hon. Friend the Minister this question: what is to prevent a customer who happens to be a tenant from marking on their electricity bill the fact that they have no problem with it being made known to the electricity company and the Department for Work and Pensions, whichever works best, that they are in receipt of benefits? The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee was fortunate to enjoy the company of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife for a time. I am sure he remembers our exchange, but the Committee has great difficulty in understanding what the problem is for the Government—either the Department for Work and Pensions or the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—in permitting that flow of information.

The House will recall the tragic case of an elderly couple who sadly passed away because they could not afford to pay their utility bills for heating. No one had informed the electricity company of that fact. I believe that what is good for electricity companies—in law, such information can be provided to those utility companies —should be equally good for the water companies, which are also utility companies. They should have access to the same information.

A close reading of proceedings in Committee shows that Water UK acknowledged the new database for landlords and tenants, but claimed that

“experience has shown that a voluntary approach simply does not work.”––[Official Report, Water Public Bill Committee, 3 December 2013; c. 15, Q19.]

It gave the example of Northumbrian Water. It has had an easy-to-use website for landlords to provide information for two and a half years, yet only 7% of all rented properties have been registered. That is a problem and this is a matter of some urgency. The Government need to press ahead—the House would support that.

In Committee, the Opposition tabled a new clause that would have meant landlords providing contact details of their tenants to the water companies, but it was voted down. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee produced a report on the water White Paper—we have worked hard on the issue and I hope we have made a positive contribution. My hon. Friend the Minister nods because he, too, was a member of the Committee when we adopted the report. I find myself in good company this evening. The report recommended that DEFRA work with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that all means-tested benefits claimants are given the option to consent to the sharing of their data with their water company for the purposes of help with affordability issues.

I and hon. Members who have put their names to new clause 3—a number are members of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee—believe that there is a difference between electricity and gas bills and water bills. If people do not pay their heating bill, their supply can be cut off, whereas if people do not pay their water bill, the water company is simply not permitted to turn off the supply of clean water going in or prevent waste water—sewage—going out, for reasons of hygiene and good health.

My hon. Friend the Minister must recognise the urgency. This year, it will be four years since the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. The legal basis exists. New clause 3 and amendment 9 would give the Secretary of State the power to make the regulations on the disclosure of benefits information relating to tenants to water and sewerage companies in connection with the bad debt provisions in the Act. The benefits information should include all information held by the Department for Work and Pensions on benefit entitlements.

All the Secretary of State needs to do is introduce appropriate safeguards in regulations to protect data. As I have indicated to the Minister, there could be a box on the bill for the customer to tick to indicate that they are willing to have information shared with the water or sewerage company. The Committee has previously recommended a simple tick-box on a customer’s bill consenting to such information disclosure. I urge him to tell the House what has changed since he endorsed such a provision in the previous Parliament—he was a member of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in the last Parliament, and was so until recently in this Parliament.

The Committee believes that the proposal is a helpful suggestion to the Government in closing a loophole and preventing an omission from the Bill. The legislation is in place. The new clause would enable companies to determine which customers cannot pay and those who will not do so. There is a clear distinction between the two. Those who can pay but will not pay are costing £15 per household. The provision would allow water companies to target information about the charitable funds and social tariffs they operate on the most vulnerable customers—those who simply cannot afford to pay, perhaps even for a temporary period—and allow them to make arrangements for which they are eligible.

There is a precedent for the disclosure of information. I understand that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs implements the warm home discount scheme, which has been regulated pursuant to powers granted to the Secretary of State in the Energy Act 2010.

The information provided by Ofwat following recent submissions of water companies’ business plans in December, which was part of the current price review round, shows that three companies have social tariffs, that 12 companies will have a social tariff by 1 April 2015, and that five companies have proposed not to introduce a social tariff.

In conclusion, I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to follow through on what he so eloquently supported when he was a member of the Select Committee and allow consumers to benefit by making benefits information available at the earliest possible opportunity. That will enable those who cannot pay to be on the radar screens not just of landlords but of the Department for Work and Pensions and their own water utility company.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) 6:45, 6 January 2014

I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I welcome the thoughtful remarks by Miss McIntosh. As she rightly said, the Minister and I had the pleasure of serving on the Select Committee under her chairmanship. She was an excellent tutor to both of us, although I suggest, looking at the debates today and in the Bill Committee, that I remember more of what the Select Committee agreed than the Minister. I am sure he will eloquently explain his position.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

The hon. Gentleman is always kind enough to remind me repeatedly, so I fear I can never forget any of our deliberations.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

It is always a good thing to be a charitable and giving soul, so I do my best to try to accommodate the Minister.

I would like to speak to the new clauses that stand in my name. As I said earlier, much attention has been paid to households that faced a difficult Christmas and new year because of the climatic conditions that battered the United Kingdom. Much less, however, has been written on households that faced a stressful period because of the economic conditions that have battered the United Kingdom, not just in the past three weeks but in the past three years. Hundreds of thousands of households did not enjoy the Christmas that all of us here in the House of Commons did, in warm and secure homes with plenty to eat and with presents given and received. Too many families were left unable to enjoy the Christmas joys that we take for granted.

The cost of living crisis cannot be dismissed as a soundbite, as many Government Members try to do. The cases of hardship regularly brought to the attention of Members of Parliament cannot simply be batted away. At a time when household incomes are continuously being squeezed, it is not acceptable to Opposition Members for most water companies to continue to do so little to help their struggling customers.

The size of water bills may not have reached the obscene level of their gas and electricity counterparts, but there is no disputing their cumulative impact. Citizens Advice reported to MPs in November that it had received almost as many inquiries from people worried about their water bills as they had about the other two utilities. DEFRA’s own statistics state that some 2.5 million households now find themselves in what the Department itself defines as water poverty, while in the past year water companies reported pre-tax profits of £1.9 billion and paid out, in dividends, a staggering £1.8 billion to their shareholders.

You might have expected the water companies to rush forward with schemes to assist their hardest-pressed customers, Mr Deputy Speaker. After all, the previous Labour Government put in place legislation to allow each company to introduce a tailor-made scheme for its own region. The water companies told the then Government and Parliament that that was all that was needed: a voluntary system of social tariffs that each and every water company would then set and implement quickly. Four years later, what progress has been made? So far, only three water companies have got around to implementing social tariffs, helping a grand total of 25,000 households across the country. Even by the end of the price review period, more than a third of water companies will still have not bothered to lift a finger and introduce such a scheme. When the water companies gave evidence to the Bill Committee, did they acknowledge that they had let down their customers and Parliament? Did they acknowledge that the rate of progress was not good enough? Did they say sorry, even once? Of course not. They blamed everyone but themselves: they blamed the regulator, they blamed the Government and they blamed the customers.

What has been the response of the Secretary of State, and his Minister with responsibility for water, to the crisis facing households? The Secretary of State sent a letter to the companies in October begging them not to raise prices further. It was not, we note, an instruction or a warning that if they did not take heed, the Government would step in. It was not even a rebuke; it was just a weak letter. That is why the Opposition have tabled four new clauses that will each help hard-pressed households. Taken together, they would make a tangible difference to those struggling with the cost of living crisis. With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will briefly take each new clause in turn, explaining the existing problems and how our proposals would address them.

First, on bad debt, I will build on the excellent remarks by the Chair of the Select Committee. Ofwat estimates that on average bad debt adds £15 to every customer’s annual bill. Note, of course, that that is just the average amount; in some cases, it is significantly more than that. As the hon. Lady said, water companies are, rightly, not allowed to cut off those who cannot afford to pay their bills, but they are allowed to pass the cost of non-payment on to their other customers. In effect, the sector already has cross-subsidisation.

Photo of Richard Benyon Richard Benyon Conservative, Newbury

Average figures are exactly that—average. There are, of course, water companies that underperform and their debt is much higher than average, but the corollary is that other water companies perform considerably better. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that there is much work to be done to learn best practice from water companies such as Yorkshire Water, which serves the constituency of the Chair of the Select Committee, my hon. Friend Miss McIntosh and is outperforming the others extremely well? We should learn from such companies about bad debt.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I know that you are a fan of all things Yorkshire, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will come on to Yorkshire Water in a moment, if the former Minister will bear with me.

As the hon. Lady said, among those who do not pay there are those who can pay. That is unfair on decent customers who meet their obligations and we believe the time has come for more robust action to be taken. Some 80% of those who do not pay are in rented accommodation. One of the challenges facing water companies is tracking down those who refuse to pay because they move homes far more often than the average person. The only way to track them down effectively is to require landlords to provide water companies with a list of tenants. Individuals moving property would not then disappear from the system and evade paying their debts.

The measure would be a simple step and it would not require a disproportionate amount of new bureaucracy to implement. It is estimated that approximately half of total bad debt falls into the category of “can pay, won’t pay”. The Select Committee, of which the Minister was previously a member, has unanimously backed the measure throughout this Parliament, so why the opposition from the Government?

Photo of Mark Spencer Mark Spencer Conservative, Sherwood

I understand, and sympathise with, the point the hon. Gentleman is making, but there is no legal way to force a tenant to inform their former landlord of a forwarding address. How can a landlord know what information to supply to the water companies, so they are able to track former tenants?

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who I think is a recent addition to the Select Committee. I do not think he was a member of the Committee when we had this discussion, so for his benefit I will say that it is quite simple. As the water companies have said, they would be supplied with names and addresses. The onus would then be on them to carry out the necessary activity to match up the appropriate individual, and there would be no significant burden on the landlord, the local authority or social housing provider. The burden for that work would fall on the water company. He will recall from our time in Committee that I was not always the water industry’s biggest fan, but on this the Select Committee, the water industry and the Opposition are united, so again I come back to this question of why the Government are so opposed to the proposal.

Photo of John Redwood John Redwood Conservative, Wokingham 7:00, 6 January 2014

I fully agree with what the hon. Gentleman is trying to do, but I share the concern of my hon. Friend Mr Spencer. How would it help to know the name of the tenant who has done a bunk, moved somewhere else and not given a forwarding address and who has no intention of paying the bill? Would the water companies not need investigatory powers to track down the tenant?

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I have huge respect for the right hon. Gentleman and his knowledge, but we are clear that, as they themselves accept, it is the water companies who would have to do the legwork; no additional burden would be placed on the landlord, as it would be for the water companies to contact householders, and obviously they would have a list of new tenants. I will use the example of the electoral roll: candidates, parliamentarians and political parties receive a list of those who are new on the register, and we then contact them to welcome them to the area. When the name of somebody who disappears from one property appears at a different property, it would not be beyond the wit of a water company to work out who they were. In Committee, the Government’s key objection seemed to be that it would place an unfair burden on landlords, so we are keen to stress that, as the Minister will recall from his time on the Select Committee, it would place an additional burden not on the landlord, but on the water companies. The companies themselves want this power. To reiterate, we are absolutely clear that those who can pay should pay, so why the opposition from the Government?

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

The hon. Gentleman has set out how the burden of pursuit would fall on the water companies, but of course the burden of providing that information to them would fall on the landlords, so there would be a burden.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I congratulate the Minister on stating the blindingly obvious. Of course, the landlord would have to provide that information, but it is not the longest list in the world, and it is information that landlords have anyway, so the Opposition, like the Select Committee, find it difficult to comprehend why it would be so onerous for landlords to provide a list of their tenants by property. If he has specific examples of hard-pressed landlords who have made representations to him, I am sure he will refer to them when he responds.

For the fourth time, I ask myself the question: why the opposition from the Government? The Secretary of State has had his usual Pavlovian reaction to a suggestion that the Government should take action. It appears once again that when Parliament, the Select Committee and the water industry ask DEFRA to do something, its knee-jerk response is to think of spurious reasons why it should not or cannot do it. Our new clause would be a pragmatic and efficient measure that would help to drive down costs on all decent households, help water companies to do their job and ensure that all customers meet their responsibilities.

Our second new clause—new clause 10—recognises that not all water companies have done all they can to tackle the problem of bad debt. As I mentioned earlier, although the average bad debt figure is about £15, there are wide variations across the country. As Richard Benyon pointed out, that is because some, such as Yorkshire Water, have worked with customers and debt advice groups, such as Citizens Advice, to put in place measures to help customers genuinely struggling to access payment packages and programmes, but unfortunately that is not the case across the country. Too many water companies have come to the unsurprising conclusion that, because they can pass the cost of bad debt on to their other customers, they need not bother to do anything about it themselves.

That is why we have tabled new clause 10. We want to give Ofwat and water companies a clear and unambiguous signal that hard-pressed customers should no longer be treated as a cash cow by companies that cannot be bothered to meet their own responsibilities. Where the regulator and the Department are satisfied that water companies are not doing enough to pursue bad debtors, the cost should no longer be passed on to other customers. Taken together, not only would our two new clauses be practical measures, but they would send a clear signal that while we will do more to help those who are struggling, we expect all customers and water companies to do their fair share.

Our third new clause—new clause 8—would help to ensure that customers know about the help for which they are eligible. In 1999, the last Labour Government introduced WaterSure to help low-income metered households with high essential water use. WaterSure caps the bills of metered households in receipt of a qualifying benefit or tax credit at the average bill for that water company’s operating area. It applies to households with three or more children under the age of 19 living at home or where someone in the household has a medical condition that necessitates high water use. It is an important measure that at the time received cross-party support and which, according to the latest figures that the Minister gave us in Committee, has helped 70,500 households in England—I think a similar scheme has helped approximately 20,000 households in Wales. Although that is welcome, we believe that that level is unacceptable. Given that, as the Consumer Council for Water has said, only one third of eligible households are in receipt of the benefit to which they are entitled, the Government have been guilty of complacency.

The Minister previously claimed there was no need for the new clause because all the water companies already provided this information. For the benefit of Members who have not had a chance to look at the amendment paper, we are proposing that information about the eligibility criteria and how to apply should be included in all water bills. He believes that all water companies already provide this information, but unfortunately for him the reality does not match his statement. Not only do his own figures show that the current approach is not working, but our own anecdotal research shows that customers are not even aware that WaterSure exists. We want to make it clear to water companies that they must do much more to promote the scheme, and we want Ofwat and the Government to hold them to account if they do not. I hope he has reflected not only on the evidence we presented in Committee, but on his own figures and the evidence from the CCW, and will listen to common sense.

Finally, our fourth new clause—new clause 7—deals with the central problem of the failure of the voluntary approach to social tariffs. As we have set out, too few water companies are helping too few customers through social tariffs, and it is clear that left to their own devices many water companies, by their own admission, will never introduce such schemes. That is why we are proposing a national affordability scheme to end the postcode lottery and ensure national standards for eligibility. We would expect schemes to be funded by the excess profits of the water companies, not by other water bill payers. As I have said, last year these companies made an eye-watering £1.9 billion in pre-tax profits and paid out £1.8 billion to investors. The idea, for example, that Yorkshire Water, which paid out £240 million, cannot afford to provide support through social tariffs is clearly nonsense.

Enough is enough. Hard-pressed households need real help now, and these new clauses are four practical and simple measures that would ensure they get it. It is time for the coalition to match our commitments.

Photo of Mark Spencer Mark Spencer Conservative, Sherwood

I want to make some brief comments that were too long for an intervention, particularly about new clause 3, tabled by my hon. Friend Miss McIntosh. I sincerely hope that, in summing up, the Minister will reflect on today’s debate, which has shown recognition across the House that consumers and our constituents are finding it very difficult to pay their household bills because of pressure on the household budget. It is worth saying that the Government recognise that challenge and are doing their best to assist, not least by turning around the failing economy that they inherited. Needless to say, a section of society will find it very challenging to pay their utility bills, and the Government have an obligation to try to assist and support them.

There is another group of people who are unwilling to pay, as a result of a frankly malicious intent to avoid paying the bill that is due to be paid. It is vital that the water companies have the power to decide which cases fit into which categories. Those who are clearly unable to pay should be able to receive assistance, support and sympathy from the water companies. New clause 3 goes some way towards assisting the water companies to identify people within the benefit and welfare support system, who may be in need of extra assistance.

I am somewhat sympathetic to new clause 8, too, which was tabled by Thomas Docherty and is designed to ensure that water companies put the neediest customers on “the lowest possible tariff”. Those who find themselves under pressure in the most challenging of circumstances are often those least able to identify from their bills which is the correct tariff for them to be on and least able to challenge the water companies to put them on a better tariff, allowing them to afford to pay their household bills. I hope that the Minister will give further consideration to that, if he is minded to do so.

Finally, I support those who have said it is difficult to understand why the Department for Work and Pensions or the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs are unable or unwilling to supply the necessary data to the water companies. I hope that when the Minister sums up, he will be able to shed some light on those thoughts.

Photo of John Redwood John Redwood Conservative, Wokingham

I hope that the Government will look at the issue of unpaid bills. Colleagues of all parties are right to draw attention to the problem—one of the many sources of excess cost in the water industry, which it would be good to reduce or eliminate. It is undoubtedly the case that we pay dearly for our main utility provision in this country, and I fear that the main reason why water bills are high and will stay high is that there is no competition. It is a great pity that this Bill will not introduce proper competition into water as into other areas, as it would make a lot of difference. The amendments are designed to deal with the situation of having regional monopolies that are in many cases unresponsive and have high cost structures. Then there is the particular problem of customers deciding—quite wilfully, when some of them are perfectly capable of paying—not to pay their bills. Clearly, more needs to be done on that.

There is some good in all the amendments before us this evening, but I am not persuaded that they take the trick. It might be helpful to know who the tenant was, but if the tenant cannot be traced to where they have gone, it will impossible to get them to pay. It might be useful to know something more about the benefits and financial circumstances of individuals, although there are issues of privacy and the handling of data that could cause difficulties, but that then fails to enable us to come down hard enough on the people who can afford to pay, which is the real issue.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

Given that it is the water industry itself that is pressing for this power relating to landlord information and given that it is prepared to bear the burden of tracking people down, does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that such a scheme is clearly workable?

Photo of John Redwood John Redwood Conservative, Wokingham

It may or may not be. I do not have a very high opinion of the success of the water industry in these areas, and it may not be the best judge, but I accept that this is one of the best points in the hon. Gentleman’s case, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply to it.

As I say, the amendments and new clauses are all well intentioned and, if passed, they might not make the situation worse and in some cases might even make it a little better. I hope, however, that the Minister, working with the water industry, can come up with something better because there is a serious issue here. A lot of money is owed to the water industry that people could afford to pay, but the matter is not being pressed.

For very good reasons, nobody here wants to change the rule about cutting people off because water is so essential. That weakens the industry’s position, which then requires other work. If the Minister is going to advise us to reject the amendments, I hope he will provide a scheme of his own because of the serious money at risk here and because it is not fair on all the other people who pay their water bills, many of them without a lot of resources themselves but who feel that they should pay. There is a cross-subsidisation going on to the benefit of people who often have more money but simply will not pay.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs 7:15, 6 January 2014

Thomas Docherty has proposed a number of new clauses, which I shall address before dealing with the lead new clause 3, tabled by the Select Committee Chairman.

New clause 7 would place a requirement on the Government to introduce through secondary legislation what is described as “a National Affordability Scheme”. The details of the scheme are not entirely clear. We debated in Committee an identical clause tabled by the hon. Gentleman, but at that point, the funding was not made clear. He said today that it would be funded specifically from the profits of the water companies rather than from other bill payers in a cross-subsidy approach.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I refer the Minister to the evidence session during the eighth sitting of the Public Bill Committee, where I specifically said that the scheme would be funded from excess profits. Perhaps the civil servants should pay more attention in future.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

The hon. Gentleman is, as always, keen to assist. What I said comes entirely from my recollection of his introduction of the measure in Committee and if it is faulty, it is certainly not on account of any information briefed to me by others. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting the issue of excess profits. However, this does not address the point that we have a regulated system under which the profits are allowed for under the price review process. I appreciate that he was not a Member when his party was most recently in government, but it was quite happy to move forward with the pricing process. What he is saying now is that he has no confidence in the regulator—in other words, that the regulator would set a level of profit that it thinks reasonable for the price review period, but that this would now somehow be unpicked as being in excess in some cases in order to fund the scheme. I am happy to give way again, in case he wants to correct this.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I am grateful, but on this occasion it is perhaps the Minister who should have paid more attention to my remarks a few moments ago. I clearly said that the last Government gave the water companies time to introduce the voluntary schemes, but that they have now failed to honour their commitment, so the Government should step in and do what the companies failed to do themselves.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s views on social tariffs, which he feels have not been introduced in a speedy enough fashion. My point was rather about the issue of excess profits. I said that the hon. Gentleman was seeking to introduce a concept that is perhaps a subjective rather than an objective assessment of the profits made by water companies. The whole point of the price review process and price review period, however, is that a regulated process takes account of the need to attract investment and thus the need to make a reasonable return in profit.

Photo of Roger Williams Roger Williams Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire

My understanding is that the water companies made larger profits because the period of very low interest rates benefited them to a great extent. However, basing an entire policy on windfall profits that might not occur in the future would certainly not be a very good idea.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is absolutely right to point out that what is proposed is a new bold national scheme built on profits that might or might not go up or down in accordance with the markets and through the price review process. Although I accept that the intention of the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife is, as always, to be helpful, I feel that his scheme could use a little work and I therefore urge my hon. Friends to resist it should he seek to press it to a vote.

Let me move next to new clause 8, also tabled by the hon. Gentleman. It would place a legal requirement on water companies to include information in their bills about the WaterSure scheme, but, as I have said—I provided information to this effect to the Committee—all water companies already do so voluntarily. He made a point based on anecdotal evidence. I would be happy to see that evidence and I am sure that he will want to share it with us, but I think we should base our policy making on the evidence provided to us and the Consumer Council for Water has been quite clear that companies provide such information to customers.

In addition, new clause 8 would place requirements on water companies to provide information about tariff structures and the lowest available tariff, a point picked up on by my hon. Friend Mr Spencer. The proposals simply fail to reflect the realities of the water sector as opposed, for example, to the energy sector. Water companies do not have complex tariff structures. The sole choice for the majority of household customers is whether to pay according to the amount of water they use through a metered tariff, which is particularly prevalent in areas such as my own, or according to the rateable value of their home through an unmetered tariff. The cheapest option for each household will therefore depend on the location of the property and the amount of water used by the household.

Many smaller households with low water use can benefit from a meter. Water companies are required to fit a water meter free of charge on request and they also advise customers on whether they might benefit financially from the installation of a water meter. A further point to bear in mind about the operation of WaterSure is that it caps the bills of eligible customers at the average of the metered and unmetered bill for the area. That could, in effect, put the bills of some eligible customers up and it is therefore not surprising that they have chosen not to apply for WaterSure.

There is no evidence, in my view, that further regulation is required in this area. As I have noted, all companies already include details of WaterSure in their household bills and they also all provide details of the support available to any customer struggling to pay their bill. Legislation to require the companies to do something that they are already doing voluntarily would be redundant.

The Consumer Council for Water works closely with the companies on the format of their bills. Its expert advice, as we discussed in Committee, is that one of the biggest risks in using water bills as a means of communication with customers is information overload. I do not, therefore, consider the new clause to be necessary.

Let me turn next to new clause 9, also tabled by the hon. Gentleman. We discussed an identical clause that he tabled in Committee. Section 45 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010 already enables Ministers to introduce secondary legislation that would require landlords to provide water companies with personal details about their tenants or become liable for paying the bill. That was a point that the Chairman of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee was keen to emphasise, given her involvement with the passage of that Act.

Following extensive consultation with the industry and with landlords’ organisations the Government took the decision that a voluntary approach would be more suitable. During consultation, landlords argued that the additional regulatory burden would be disproportionate as they are not the source of the problem we are trying to tackle. At the same time, the evidence provided by the water sector to support the case for additional regulation was not sufficient to make the case for additional regulation of millions of small and micro-businesses.

The Government simply do not believe that more regulation is always the answer. As we discussed in Committee, good practice in tackling bad debt is not applied consistently across the water sector. The hon. Gentleman quite rightly took great pains to point that out. The significant variation in performance between companies tells us that the focus should be on driving better standards across the sector rather than regulating landlords.

One reason we do not propose to bring forward the bad debt regulations on landlords is that we do not wish to endorse the argument that performance on bad debt is not within the control of water companies. We think there is more that the companies can do to collect their debts and we want them to focus on that rather than look to the Government to solve the problem for them.

Of course, the real drivers of company performance are the incentives and penalties set by the regulator so I am pleased to be able to report that Ofwat has changed its approach to bad debt in the methodology it is using for the 2014 price review. The new approach will enable it more effectively to bear down on the costs of bad debt. It is doing so by insisting that the companies demonstrate that any increase in bad debt is genuinely beyond their control and that they have taken all available steps to control it. Unless they can prove that that is the case they will not be allowed to include it in customer charges. We are already seeing our focus on the industry’s taking responsibility for tackling bad debt bear fruit. As I mentioned in Committee, the industry is working with landlords’ organisations to establish a new voluntary scheme that will enable landlords to provide information about their tenants direct to water companies swiftly and easily.

Photo of Anne McIntosh Anne McIntosh Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, but before he concludes his remarks he must say what the Government object to as regards the 2010 Act. I do not personally subscribe to the data protection argument if someone is genuinely in need.

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

The Chair of the Select Committee is quite right that I have yet to respond to that aspect of her argument and I will seek to do so, I hope to her satisfaction, once I have made my closing remarks on new clause 9.

The industry is working with landlords’ organisations to establish the new voluntary scheme that will enable landlords to provide information about their tenants direct to water companies swiftly and easily and that approach has the support of Water UK and the main landlords’ organisations. The new database will launch in March next year and I believe that it should be given time to work. For those reasons, I believe that new clause 9 is not necessary.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs)

I am grateful to the Minister and am listening carefully to what he says. He will, I am sure, come on to his justifications as regards new clause 10 in a second. Before he finishes dealing with new clause 9, however, can he say what he defines as “time to work”?

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

We should at least allow the database to be set up and give it a chance to operate. That would seem to be a fair approach and it is certainly the one I seek to take. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s keenness to see progress but I believe that the voluntary approach will have some effect and we should give it time to do so.

Let me turn now, as the hon. Gentleman uncannily predicts, to new clause 10, which he has tabled in his efforts to make some changes to the Bill, and in Committee we discussed a similar clause that he tabled. The new clause will provide a new power for Ministers and Ofwat to disallow companies from recovering the cost of unpaid bills from their paying customers. The hon. Gentleman has argued that there is no incentive for companies to collect bad debt. During our previous discussions, I made it clear that Ofwat has the power to decide which costs may be recovered through the price review. Ofwat is already using the price review process to bear down on the costs of bad debt and requiring companies to demonstrate high performance in debt collection and to show that any increase in bad debt is beyond their control before they are allowed to include it in customer charges. The price review will challenge poor performers to raise their game.

The new clause proposes a power for a future Secretary of State to intervene in the setting and recovery of charges. That is exactly the kind of political interference that concerns the investors who are critical to the water industry. I have stated before that the stability of the regulatory regime is vital to keeping the cost of borrowing low. An increase in that cost will have the direct result of putting up customers’ bills and I am firmly of the view that it is for the regulator and not the Government to make detailed decisions about charges. New clauses 9 and 10 intend to incentivise companies to improve their debt collection performance and I absolutely support that objective. I cannot, however, support the approach that has been proposed and I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman—and, I am sure, to surprise him.

Let me turn finally to new clause 3, tabled by my hon. Friend Miss McIntosh, the hon. Members for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) and my hon. Friend Roger Williams. The proposed clause targets a number of points that we have already discussed in some detail, including bad debt and social tariffs.

The practical effect of the new clause would be to require the Department for Work and Pensions to supply water companies with personal information about their customers. The clause focuses solely on the subset of customers that are both in receipt of benefits and living in rented accommodation. Amendment 9 would simply include the proposed new clause in the list of measures to be commenced two months following Royal Assent.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton for her clarification that the clause is intended both to help water companies to collect their debts and to target social tariffs at customers in rented accommodation who are also in receipt of benefits. However, I am afraid that I do not believe that the clause is likely to achieve either objective effectively.

As I have already set out, the Government’s position on bad debt among water customers is that there is a great deal more that the industry can do for itself. We think, therefore, that there is more companies can do to collect their debts and we want them to focus on that rather than to look to the Government to solve the problem for them.

I am pleased, as I have said, that the industry is already taking more responsibility, by working on a voluntary approach to sharing information on customers in rented accommodation, using the landlord database, as we have discussed in response to new clause 9, tabled by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife.

Benefits data, like all personal data, are highly sensitive. We must therefore take their security extremely seriously. The circumstances in which any personal data can be shared are tightly controlled by law. No legislative gateway permits data sharing for the purposes of collecting debt. Therefore, simply passing on the details of all those who are on benefits to water companies without the appropriate consents would be illegal.

Moving on to the objective of targeting social tariffs, new clause 3 would focus support on a very specific subsection of water customers: those who both receive benefits and live in rented accommodation. The problem with that approach is that it would target help at many people who do not need it and exclude many who do need it. It is important that we do not over-simplify. Benefit recipients are a very diverse group of people, including, for example, pensioners and those in receipt of child benefit, disability benefits and a range of both in and out-of-work benefits.

Evidence from Ofwat shows that the majority—60%—of households at risk of water affordability problems do not receive means-tested benefits. Additionally, when universal credit is fully rolled out, it will replace all the existing wide-range of income-related social security benefits and tax credits. Many of its recipients will be in work and have reasonable earnings. So receipt of universal credit alone is not a suitable indicator of possible eligibility for access to a social tariff. Similarly, no evidence suggests that living in rented accommodation is a reliable indicator of affordability problems.

Furthermore, many customers, whether or not in receipt of benefits, own their own property but nevertheless suffer real affordability problems. Precisely because water affordability problems are not simple, we have resisted a simplistic, top-down approach to social tariffs.

My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton asked why water companies could not simply use a tick-box to ascertain whether people were happy to share their data. Anyone can agree to have their personal information shared, but that is quite different from the effect of new clause 3, which would require the Government to share personal information. That is perhaps the problem that we would have with new clause 3.

We must not forget that all social tariffs are cross-subsidised by increasing the bills of ineligible customers.

Photo of Thomas Docherty Thomas Docherty Shadow Minister (Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) 7:30, 6 January 2014

I remind the Minister that our scheme would not involve cross-subsidisation. I am surprised that he is so against the use of benefit systems for social tariffs, because the Liberal Democrats in Scotland actively supported the introduction of social tariffs based on council tax benefit. What is the difference?

Photo of Dan Rogerson Dan Rogerson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

I am seeking to point out that there are a range of benefits and a range of circumstances for people. The hon. Gentleman highlights one benefit. Of course council tax benefit no longer exits in this country in the format that it does in Scotland, as we have now moved over to local council tax forms of support, so there is a different system, which would not necessarily translate across. The hon. Gentleman is keen always to learn the lessons of Scotland, but some of these things do not apply simply, given the different frameworks following the devolution settlement.

We place emphasis on locally designed social tariffs developed in close consultation with the customers who will ultimately foot the bill, as opposed to crude, centrally imposed eligibility criteria. Although I very much thank hon. Members for their new clauses and understand their aspirations in tabling them, I would urge my hon. Friends to resist them.

Photo of Anne McIntosh Anne McIntosh Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Chair, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee

We have had a fruitful debate, but I express my disappointment that my hon. Friend the Minister has not seen fit to take a simple measure that already exists on the statute book and is not intended to be regulatory. He will, of course, have opportunities in the future to appear before the Select Committee that I chair and that will give him plenty of opportunity to explain at greater length why he is unable to support these new clauses. It is my fervent wish that such new clauses might perhaps find their way on to the notice paper in another place. However, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.