Clause 3 — Supplementary and transitional provision about elections
Scotland Bill
1:20 pm
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I beg to move, That this House
agrees with Lords amendment 1.
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
With this we may take Lords amendments 7, 8, 10 and 11.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
Along with the redoubtable Wendy Alexander, Annabel Goldie, Lord Browne of Ladyton, Lord Stephen and my right hon. Friend Mr Carmichael, I took part in the very first meeting that led to the establishment of the Calman commission. I am pleased and proud today to be part of what I hope will be the successful conclusion of the commission’s work. The return of the Scotland Bill to this House comes after the other place has given the Bill a great deal of detailed scrutiny and consideration for many months. Indeed, in handling the Bill in the Lords, Lord Wallace of Tankerness was compared to Kate Adie. That comparison is not correct: he was more like General Montgomery, because he was at the forefront of the action rather than a mere commentator.
Since the Bill was last in this House, there have been two very significant developments. The Scottish Government have changed their position from one of opposition to one of support for the Bill, including many of the amendments we will consider today. On
When the Bill was last in this House, it appeared that the Scottish National party would never join the consensus that has been shared throughout both the Calman commission process and the parliamentary process on the Bill.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
I know that the Minister wants to pretend that this Bill is incredibly important, but in fact it is a rather modest Bill. If I may correct him—I know that he sometimes struggles with detail—he will remember that on Second Reading, I made it clear that we would not stand in the way of the Bill. I welcome the changes that the UK Government have made, in particular to remove some of the re-reservations, and I hope that we can now get on and pass this modest little measure.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I also remember the occasion on which the Scottish National party voted against the Bill, as we will detail in respect of the specific amendments that come forward. Several changes have been made to the Bill, but all of them have been on the basis of assurances provided by the Scottish Government as to how the matters will be conducted.
Anne McGuire (Stirling, Labour)
Except sometimes the right hand of the Scottish National party does not know what the left hand is doing. While down here it was being conciliatory, it was initially prepared to stand in the way of this extensive devolution of powers.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
The right hon. Lady may recall that during previous consideration of the Bill, I identified London SNP as a quite different body from the Scotland-based SNP. At the same time as the SNP in London opposed the Bill, more sensible forces in the Scottish Parliament were looking to bring forward what will be a significant package of measures that will strengthen devolution by increasing the financial accountability and responsibility of the Scottish Parliament.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
Instead of misrepresenting me, why does not the junior Minister understand that the only reason the Scottish Parliament was able to agree the legislative consent motion was because the UK Government agreed to remove the idiotic re-reservations that they had planned; agreed to take out some of the significant and damaging things that they had intended with the Supreme Court; and, fundamentally and very sensibly, agreed proper commencement procedures, about which I will say more later?
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I am sure that the SNP at Westminster group leader’s substitute will recognise that when this Bill was previously debated in this Parliament, the Scottish National party indicated that it had six demands that it required to be reflected on the face of the Bill before it would support it. None of those six demands is in the Bill as we debate it today or as it was debated in the Scottish Parliament, where it received unanimous support—including that of all members of the Scottish National party present.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
I do not really like the Bill being called modest by the Scottish National party when the Office for Budget Responsibility says that the Scottish Parliament will be able to have over £500 million of income tax in 2015-16. That is hardly modest.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. This is a significant measure which will lead to the largest transfer of fiscal powers between Westminster and Scotland in 300 years, and it should be welcomed by all parties. My hon. Friend may be aware that yesterday that the First Minister apparently told the Institute of Directors that he planned to align taxes in Scotland with the rest of the UK, so the Scottish National party may now regard the actual requirement for tax-varying powers as insignificant.
Lords amendment 1 seeks to improve the drafting of clause 3. Section 113 of the Scotland Act 1998 makes provision about the scope of subordinate legislation powers in that Act. Clause 3(1) amends section 113 of the Scotland Act so that the supplementary powers contained in section 113 also apply to Scottish Ministers’ new power to make subordinate legislation about the administration of Scottish Parliament elections under section 12 of the 1998 Act.
Lords amendment 1 would replace clause 3(1) with new provision having the same effect. The amendment would have the effect of restructuring section 113 and
this would make it easier for provisions in this Bill or future legislation to provide that the supplementary powers contained in section 113 apply in relation to other powers that may be conferred on the Scottish Ministers.
Clause 15 changes the name of the Scottish Executive to the Scottish Government. Lords amendments 7 and 8 are minor technical amendments that would ensure that all the references to “Scottish Executive” in section 44 of the Scotland Act are amended to “Scottish Government”.
Clause 22 makes provision for there to be a Crown Estate Commissioner who knows about conditions in Scotland. Lords amendments 10 and 11 would change the name of this Commissioner from the “Scottish Crown Estate Commissioner”, to the “Crown Estate Commissioner with special responsibility for Scotland”. I can confirm that the original title for the commissioner included in the Bill was taken from the Calman commission’s own proposals and discussed with the Crown Estate. However, it is accepted that the amendments to the commissioner’s title will properly reflect the role that the commissioner will play.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
The Minister will concede, I hope, that notwithstanding this change there is no material difference between the Bill as it was and the amendment to the title of the Crown Estate Commissioner?
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
The amendment changes the title. If the hon. Gentleman is alluding to whether the Scottish Government, in their discussions on the Bill, put forward a requirement for further devolution of the Crown Estate, I can tell him that they did not. It was not a red line for the Scottish Government.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
As far as I am aware, no costs are associated with changing the name from that proposed in the original Bill to the revised one.
Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central, Labour)
Will the title of First Minister be changed to “Secretary of State for Rupert Murdoch”?
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I am sure that that is a matter on which the hon. Gentleman and many others hold a view but on which the Government do not.
The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs has produced an interesting report on the future of the Crown Estate in Scotland. Obviously, the Government welcome the assiduous work carried out in preparing the report. I am surprised that its Chairman, Mr Davidson, who usually plays a robust part in these deliberations, is not present. I had anticipated his having something to say about his report. However, the Government will consider it in due course. I understand that it has been debated in the Scottish Parliament, where the devolution of Crown Estate activities directly to local communities found support, at least among opposition parties there.
On that basis, I hope that the House will agree with the Lords amendments.
William Bain (Glasgow North East, Labour)
As we begin debating the Lords amendments, I hope the House will consider it appropriate for the Opposition to mark the significance of what is likely to be our final consideration of the Scotland Bill. If it receives Royal Assent in the coming days, the Bill will represent the largest devolution of financial powers to Scotland in 300 years; will make decisions on spending and taxation more transparently accountable to the Scottish Parliament than at any time since 1999; and create new borrowing powers with the potential to boost economic growth significantly.
This enhancement of devolution is the culmination of a four-year process of cross-party and cross-societal constitutional reform through the Calman commission, which was established by Wendy Alexander and other pro-devolution party leaders in Scotland. Its outcome was accepted in a White Paper by my right hon. Friend Mr Murphy; was assisted by my hon. Friends the Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) in various capacities; and has been implemented with cross-party support by the coalition Government.
It is also welcome that the Scottish Government have finally indicated their assent, if not warm-hearted approval, for the Bill, after a significantly longer and more circuitous journey to reach that position than that undergone by Scotland’s other political parties.
Michael Moore (Secretary of State, Scotland; Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, Liberal Democrat)
I would like to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, his colleague the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Members for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and those from all parties in the House and elsewhere who have helped to make this Bill what it is today. I hope that Mr Bain will agree that this is a good model for how parties should work together to produce consensus and plan, and then devolve significant powers to Scotland.
William Bain (Glasgow North East, Labour)
I heartily agree with the Secretary of State.
The Bill is good for democracy in decentralising certain financial powers, and good for the Scottish economy in devolving the right levers to promote further growth.
Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw, Labour)
Will my hon. Friend confirm that, in effect, this really is devo-max?
William Bain (Glasgow North East, Labour)
It is intriguing. We have several descriptions: “indy-lite”, “devo-plus”, “devo-max”. Various formulations for additional powers have been put out for public discussion. I think this is “devo-positive”. It will give the Scottish Parliament additional democratic legitimacy by enabling it to raise about 35% of what it spends—far more than at present—but without the race to the bottom with other countries or parts of the United Kingdom on tax rates, including corporate tax rates, which would be very damaging for growth.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South, Labour)
Lots of adjectives have been attached to the word “devo” with regards to the debate about the constitutional settlement in Scotland.
Given that the Scottish National party supported it, then did not support it, then supported it again, then did not support it, then supported it again, could this be “devo-hokey cokey”?
William Bain (Glasgow North East, Labour)
That is a very interesting point put with typical style by my hon. Friend.
As a party that first supported devolution more than a century ago, we are pleased to see the Scottish Parliament strengthened by the Bill’s progress through the House and the other place.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
The hon. Gentleman’s introductory remarks are interesting. Can we take it, given that he is speaking from the Opposition Front Bench, that the position of the British Labour party is no devolution of corporation tax to Scotland, under any circumstances, even if the evidence tells us that the power it might give would be incredibly beneficial for jobs and working people?
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. I might be able to help. I know that Mr Bain will come straight back to the amendments and that we will not drift any further.
William Bain (Glasgow North East, Labour)
I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman wishes to make that intervention again when we discuss the implementation of tax powers, Mr Deputy Speaker, you might view it in order for me to address it then.
On the specific amendments, we support the provisions that make clearer the circumstances and criteria for Scottish Ministers to make orders in relation to the conduct of Scottish parliamentary elections. Those powers will be largely devolved to the Scottish Parliament under clause 3. We also agree with amendments 7 and 8, which resolve any remaining drafting ambiguities in relation to the change in the legal name of the Scottish Executive to “the Scottish Government” in clause 15. We also have no difficulty with amendments 10 and 11, which amend clause 22 to alter the Crown Estate commissioner’s name to
“Crown Estate Commissioner with special responsibility for Scotland”
to denote the special status that one of the Crown Estate commissioners will have, should the Bill become law.
In short, then, the Opposition support the amendments.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am surprised to be called so early. [Laughter.]
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. If the hon. Gentleman wishes me to call someone else, I can do, but I am sure he is happy to continue.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
Forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was in total shock. I fell over.
I speak as someone who sounds like a Sassenach, but my Scottish father joined the Royal Air Force and was thereafter posted all over the world. Many members of my family still live in Scotland. My Aunt Eileen lives in Largs and my cousin teaches Gaelic in the Outer Hebrides. I say that to demonstrate that what happens in Scotland matters to a great number of us in the House. Many of my colleagues, such as my hon. and very good Friend Mrs Laing, have Scottish ancestry going back—
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. I know, Mr Stewart, that you will come to the amendments immediately, rather than touring Scotland. It is interesting to hear where your relatives live, and on another day I would welcome that information, but today I want to hear your views on the amendments.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
All the amendments are very acceptable to me and to the other Stewarts in the House.
Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest, Conservative)
I am sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you will agree that it is relevant to say that the amendment matters not only to people living in Scotland but to people in the whole of the United Kingdom, because our country operates as one. I am sure that the speech by my hon. Friend Bob Stewart, who was educated at the excellent Chigwell school in Epping Forest, will be warmly welcomed by the Epping Forest Scottish Society, which shares his views on this matter.
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
The southern Scottish seat of Epping Forest has been mentioned, but it is not relevant to this group of amendments. Let us now get back to the amendments.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The amendments will certainly be welcomed by the Stewart Society, which I shall be speaking to in two weeks’ time.
It is absolutely right that Members of the Scottish Parliament should have responsibility for raising more money, and the amendments will help them to do that. I am also pleased that MSPs will be more accountable to the Scottish people. I fully support, as do most people in this House, the fact that the Scottish Parliament will have responsibility for health, education, transport and the police. I am very pleased with the amendments.
Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw, Labour)
Would it not be a great shame if all these amendments were to fall because, for some bizarre reason, the people of Scotland decided to separate from the United Kingdom?
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
It would be horrific if that were to happen. The Opposition and the Conservatives are all Unionists in this regard. It would be a disaster if there were any kind of separation of our great nation. Scotland is much more powerful through being connected with the English, the Welsh and the Northern Irish.
I am delighted to end my speech here. My jokes have been cut short by the unkindness of the Deputy Speaker, who will not allow me—
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is immediately going to withdraw that remark.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
I am not sure that I will—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”] Yes, I certainly will withdraw it!
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
I am being very generous to the hon. Gentleman, and I am giving him that chance.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham, Conservative)
With crawlingness, I withdraw my remark. I shall sit down at this point.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
It is a great pleasure to follow Bob Stewart, and it is a pity that we did not get to hear the rest of his speech. SNP Members were particularly looking forward to the tour de force that his tour around Scotland would have provided. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to hear it another day.
We in the Scottish National party welcome the Lords amendments. Anything that gives more power to the Scottish Parliament will be welcome to us. At this, the last moment of the last day of the last stage of the Scotland Bill, I just want to say: what a process we have had! There are many things we could say about the Bill, but we could never describe it as being particularly exciting. It has never had much press attention in the course of the past few months. We could describe it as unambitious, uneventful or lacking the powers to grow the economy, but the main thing about the Bill is that it is so “minority Government”. It is from another day, another era—it is from the last gasp of a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament. It is from a day that has passed.
Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest, Conservative)
I fail to understand how the hon. Gentleman can find it unexciting or irrelevant that Members of the Scottish Parliament are being made more accountable to the people of Scotland. That is what devolution and increasing democracy are all about. I would have thought that he would be excited by that.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. As always in these debates, she makes a colourful presence and puts her case passionately and well. I must say, however, that the Bill has been overtaken by events. Things have happened over the past year, and the one big thing that happened was the election of a majority SNP Government. Everything has changed because of that.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
I am genuinely sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not more positive in welcoming the Bill, but his support in the voting Lobby is obviously what matters. He mentions the things that have happened over the past year. In the past day, we have heard the amazing announcement by the First Minister that he is in favour of having the same income tax levels even if Scotland were to be given independence. Is it not amazing that a
party that has been struggling for independence for 90 years is now telling us that, if Scotland were to become independent, nothing much would change?
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
What the Scottish people are hearing is a compelling case for Scottish independence, and the question will be put to them in a couple of years. The overwhelming majority of them will endorse and support it. We look forward to having that debate over the next couple of years, because we are absolutely confident that we will secure that overwhelming majority.
Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw, Labour)
Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House what made the Bill a bad Bill, and what it is that now makes it a good Bill?
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
To be fair, this is a much better Bill now than it was a year ago. All the damaging economic powers that would have cost Scotland so much have gone. I am also glad that the UK Government have agreed with the Scottish Government on commencement powers, so that we will no longer be exposed to the damaging measure that would have had a massive and dramatic impact on Scotland.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
rose—
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
I have a choice between the two Front Benches. I will give way to the Minister first.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
We would not want the hon. Gentleman to mislead the House. The UK Government have not agreed with the Scottish Government on dual commencement. What we have said is that it is desirable and that we will work with the Scottish Government to achieve it, but it has not been agreed on at this stage. I say this just so that right hon. and hon. Members are not misled.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that. It is good that he agrees with the Scottish Government that joint commencement is a good idea and I welcome the fact that there will be a veto for the Scottish Parliament in regard to the commencement of potentially damaging tax powers.
The Bill does not meet the aspirations of the Scottish people. It does not meet the aspirations of the anti-independence parties either. They have all moved on as well, and decided that these provisions are not enough. The Conservative-led Unionist alliance and what accounts for their think-tanks are all now considering the next stages of devolution as they move forward. They, as well as the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish people, have passed the Bill by. The Bill is finished, it is dead, it is something that belongs to another day and another era.
David Mowat (Warrington South, Conservative)
I think I heard the hon. Gentleman say a few moments ago that this version of the Bill would save the Scottish Government and the Scottish people many billions, compared with the version that we discussed a year ago. Will he tell the House which amendments that observation pertains to, and what it was that he was talking about?
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman heard my exchange with the Minister, but this is to do with commencement powers. The agreement of the Scottish Parliament will now have to be sought before any tax-changing powers are brought in, which is right and appropriate. That will ensure that we do not go down any route that could damage the Scottish economy or the way in which the Scottish Parliament is funded.
I can see that you are keen for me to speak to the Lords amendments, Mr Deputy Speaker. We welcome the amendments. It is unfortunate that Jim McGovern is not here, but he will at last be able to refer to the Scottish Government as, well, a Government. The days of the Executive—and the unambitious Executives of the past—are finally at an end. The term “Executive” refers to boardrooms and golf clubs. It is Governments who run Scotland. As long as we are in charge, it is a Government, it will continue to be a Government and it will have the powers of a Government.
Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw, Labour)
Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that his party voted for the Scotland Act 1998, which introduced the Scottish Executive?
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
One of the first things we did when we came into government, back in 2007, was to ensure that we were a Scottish Government. If it looks like a Government, walks like a Government and quacks like a Government, it is a Government. We will continue to be that Government. The days of the unambitious Labour-Liberal Executive have now gone, and thank goodness for that.
We welcome the amendments, and I look forward to discussing the others and finding out why the Labour party has changed its mind on—
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
I have just about finished my speech, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind. I have had enough of Labour Members’ interventions, as they all tend to be on the same theme, but I thank him for his interest.
We will support the Lords amendments. It is in Scotland’s interests that the powers should be transferred, and we will continue to support the rest of the amendments.
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Minister, do you wish to speak—[ Interruption. ] I am sorry; I call Anne McGuire.
Anne McGuire (Stirling, Labour)
I appreciate I am a blushing violet sitting here and you obviously did not quite see me, Mr Deputy Speaker. You are one of the few men who could say that they did not see me—even on this matter, but never mind!
I want to deal with the comments made by Pete Wishart on this group of miscellaneous amendments. I think his comments are indicative of the fact that it is does not matter how much devolution is given to Scotland or is agreed with the people of Scotland, it is never enough for a party that has only one ambition in this life, which is to separate Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Such a party will continue to throw around the sort of parliamentary insults that the hon. Gentleman
managed to put into his short contribution—such as “unambitious”. Frankly, it is not unambitious to provide the greatest transfer of powers to the Scottish people, and to give not just fiscal autonomy, which is a camouflage for independence, but fiscal responsibility to the Scottish Parliament.
I can see that you are getting agitated, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I may not be addressing the amendments, so let me deal with amendment 7, which is about health professionals. I have some concern about it. Although there is significant devolution of power, there is still cross-border traffic when it comes to health professionals. It was rational to say that this should have been a reserved power. However, it was yesterday’s statement by the First Minister that convinced me that this was probably the right way to go. We are now going to have not only the same Queen, the same currency and the same NATO, but, I hope, the same level of regulatory provision for health professionals, too.
I welcome the amendment, but I ask the Minister to convince me that there will be enough communication and consideration between the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that we keep in sync health professional regulation between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, so that people do not feel that they will get a different level of professionalism from the people they need to trust for their medical care according to whether they live north or south of the border.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South, Labour)
My right hon. Friend is creating an important narrative for the link between the national health services in Scotland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that that probably explains how the Scottish National party ended up voting on the Health and Social Care Bill—because of the interlinked nature of the NHS between Scotland and the rest of the UK?
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. The amendment refers only to leaving something out, which is all we are effectively debating. I have allowed some latitude, but I have to watch that we do not stray too far away from the amendment. I understand that the provisions affect Scotland and that hon. Members want to open up the debate, but we must try to stick to the amendments.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)
Will the right hon. Lady give way?
Anne McGuire (Stirling, Labour)
I think that Mr Deputy Speaker wants us to move the business on, and I do not wish to trespass further on his charity.
I want a reassurance that there will be full discussions between the UK Government and the Scottish Government to ensure that we have a framework that will regulate health professionals across the United Kingdom, albeit that the Scottish Government will have responsibility.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda, Labour)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Yesterday afternoon, my hon. Friend Mr Sutcliffe asked the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport:
“Why was the special adviser the nominated person in the Department? If this was so important, as the Secretary of State is saying, why was his special adviser the nominated person?”
The Secretary of State replied:
“His role was agreed by the permanent secretary”.—[Hansard, 25 April 2012; Vol. 543, c. 963.]
This morning, at the Public Accounts Committee, the permanent secretary was asked on 10 occasions whether he had actually approved that decision, as the Secretary of State suggested to the House yesterday, and he point blank refused to say. The reason this is a point of order is that if we were to apply for a
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
First, I cannot judge something that has not happened. We do not know whether what the hon. Member mentions will be received on Monday. The decision will obviously be taken when such a request has been received; only then could it be decided upon. It would be wrong for me to rule on something hypothetical.
Anne McGuire (Stirling, Labour)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to apologise to the House. As I was speaking, I was looking at amendment 7 from the Lords rather than our amendment 7. I hope that my contribution will be taken in the context of the right amendment.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
I shall make a few points on the issues pertaining to this group of amendments. I can assure Mrs McGuire that we on the Government Benches always listen to her wise counsel. I will deal with the specific points she raised, which are important—regardless of when or where they are raised.
As the matter was raised by Pete Wishart, let me be clear about the position on joint commencement. The Scottish Government sought a specific provision for joint commencement in this Bill. The request was refused, as it was unworkable—like so many proposals advanced either by the SNP in London or the Scottish Government. Instead, we focused on delivering this Bill. At last, that objective is shared by the Scottish Government.
Of course we want to achieve circumstances in which joint commencement can take place. I shall quote from a letter sent by the Secretary of State on
“Consistent with the principle of consent, our two governments should reach agreement on implementation issues, including adjustments to the block grant, to take account of the Scottish Parliament’s new fiscal powers.”
That is the Government’s position.
Let me respond to a point made by hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie). He seemed to suggest that evidence had been produced to support the Scottish Government’s and indeed the Scottish National party’s suggestion that corporation tax should be devolved. Again, I am sure that he would not wish to mislead the House into thinking that actual evidence had been produced to support that proposition. Indeed, it was not.
Stewart Hosie (Dundee East, Scottish National Party)
The Minister’s memory is appalling. I intervened on the Labour Front-Bench spokesman to ask the Labour party’s position on corporation tax. I said no such thing about evidence being provided to the UK Government. I am sure Hansard will bear that out. If, however, the Minister wants to carry on and embarrass himself further, I will be delighted to listen.
Lindsay Hoyle (Deputy Speaker; Chorley, Labour)
Order. I would obviously not allow the Opposition Front-Bench team to respond. I am sure that, as we go through the further provisions, everyone will be able to discuss the issues about taxation that they wish to raise.
David Mundell (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Scotland; Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale, Conservative)
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall not use the same tone as the hon. Gentleman, although I think his remarks confirmed that no evidence had been produced at all or in any form to support the proposition of devolving corporation tax. That is why it is not being devolved in this Bill and is not the subject of these or any other amendments brought forward in the House of Lords. I support the amendment on that basis.
Lords amendment 1 agreed to.