New Clause 24 — Powers of National Assembly for Wales: Auditor General for Wales
Oral Answers to Questions — Prime Minister
House of Commons debates, 4 November 2009, 6:45 pm
'(1) Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 (c. 32) is amended as follows.
(2) In Part 1, under Field 14, insert—
"Matter 14.1
(1) The following aspects of the Auditor General's terms of appointment—
(a) the period of the appointment;
(b) salary, allowances and superannuation benefits;
(c) pensions and gratuities payable after a person has ceased to hold the office.
(2) The number of times a person may be appointed to the office of Auditor General.
(3) Restrictions on the other offices and positions which may be held by the person who is the Auditor General; activities of a person who has held the office of Auditor General (but no longer does).
(4) Provision requiring the Auditor General—
(a) to aim to do things efficiently and cost-effectively;
(b) to have regard, as the Auditor General thinks appropriate, to the standards and principles that an expert professional provider of accounting or auditing services would be expected to apply.
(5) The authorisation of persons to exercise functions of the Auditor General on the Auditor General's behalf (including during a vacancy in the office).
(6) The oversight or supervision of the Auditor General or of the exercise of the Auditor General's functions.
(7) The provision or use of resources for the purposes of the Auditor General's functions including (in particular)—
(a) the employment and use of staff;
(b) the procurement and use of services;
(c) the holding of documents or information;
(d) the keeping of records.
(8) The charging of fees or other amounts in relation to functions of—
(a) the Auditor General, or
(b) auditors appointed by the Auditor General under enactments.
(9) The restatement of any law relating to the Auditor General."
(3) In Part 2, after paragraph 6, insert—
"6A (1) This paragraph applies to a provision of an Assembly Measure which—
(a) is a Matter 14.1 provision;
(b) provides for the enforcement of a Matter 14.1 provision or is otherwise appropriate for making a Matter 14.1 provision effective;
(c) is otherwise incidental to, or consequential on, a Matter 14.1 provision.
"Matter 14.1 provision" means a provision which relates to Matter 14.1 (and section 94(7) applies for the purposes of this definition as it applies for the purposes of section 94).
(2) The following provisions do not apply in relation to a provision to which this paragraph applies—
(a) paragraph 3 so far as it applies in relation to sections 145, 145A and 146A(1) of the Government of Wales Act 1998;
(b) paragraph 6(1).
(3) Subject to sub-paragraph (4), a provision to which this paragraph applies cannot—
(a) modify or confer power by subordinate legislation to modify paragraph 3 of Schedule 8, or
(b) give or confer power by subordinate legislation to give any role to a committee of the Assembly.
(4) Sub-paragraph (3) does not limit any role which may be given to a committee of the Assembly which meets the requirements in sub-paragraph (5) (whether established by virtue of a provision to which this paragraph applies or otherwise).
(5) The requirements are—
(a) none of the following may be a member of the committee—
(i) the First Minister or any person designated to exercise functions of the First Minister;
(ii) a Welsh Minister appointed under section 48;
(iii) the Counsel General or any person designated to exercise the functions of the Counsel General;
(iv) a Deputy Welsh Minister;
(b) the committee must not be chaired by an Assembly member who is a member of a political group with an executive role.".'— (Mr. David.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Wayne David (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Wales Office; Caerphilly, Labour)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Wayne David (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Wales Office; Caerphilly, Labour)
New clause 24 will confer legislative competence on the National Assembly for Wales. Such provisions are commonly known as framework or measure-making powers. I want to apologise to the Committee that this framework power was not included in the Bill on its introduction, as the Government have committed to doing in respect of all framework powers. I regret that the technical nature of the provision meant that it did not prove possible to finalise it in time. The Government have, however, introduced the new clause at the first available opportunity and I am pleased that so many Members attended the briefing session on the provision that I held yesterday with the Welsh Minister, Andrew Davies.
David Gauke (Shadow Minister, Treasury; South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)
The Minister says that the delay was due to a technical difficulty. Will he reassure the Committee that it was not due to Wales being forgotten? We know that the Government's relationship with the Principality is not what it was—Labour is no longer the most popular political party in Wales—and I fear that this is an example of Welsh neglect.
Wayne David (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Wales Office; Caerphilly, Labour)
I assure the hon. Gentleman that that is not the case. Incidentally, the Labour party is back on top, as the recent opinion polls show.
This measure is very technical, and we wanted to ensure the maximum amount of consultation. That has now taken place, and we are satisfied with what we are proposing.
David Gauke (Shadow Minister, Treasury; South West Hertfordshire, Conservative)
I shall make a less partisan point. Does this measure have any budgetary implications and, if so, where are the resources coming from?
Wayne David (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Wales Office; Caerphilly, Labour)
There are no budgetary implications for this Government. Any budgetary implications would be in the hands of the Welsh Assembly Government.
The new clause adds a new Matter 14.1 to part 1 of schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 2006 in the field of public administration. It also inserts new paragraph 6A into part 2 of schedule 5 to the 2006 Act to modify the general restrictions on the Assembly's competence.
The competence conferred by Matter 14.1 would allow the National Assembly to pass legislation, known as an Assembly measure, to put in place new arrangements for the Auditor General for Wales and the Wales Audit Office. These arrangements are comparable to the ones set out in part 7 of the Bill for the Comptroller and Auditor General and the National Audit Office. However, the Assembly may decide on different arrangements within the scope of the competence conferred.
In particular, the competence covers the Auditor General's terms of appointment relating to tenure and remuneration, the number of times that a person may be appointed Auditor General, the efficiency and effectiveness of the Auditor General, the other positions that a serving or former Auditor General may hold, the authorisation of other people to perform the Auditor General's functions on his or her behalf, oversight and supervision of the Auditor General, and the provision of resources for the Auditor General and the charging of fees or other amounts.
It is right that the National Assembly should have the power to decide what arrangements are appropriate in relation to the public auditor for the devolved bodies operating in Wales. The structure of public audit is different in Wales compared with England, and the new clause gives the Assembly power to put in place arrangements for the more effective oversight, supervision and accountability of the Auditor General for Wales. At the same time, it makes sure that the independence of the Auditor General's operational audit work is maintained.
The Assembly will not be able to modify provisions in the Government of Wales Act 2006 that provide that the Auditor General is not subject to the direction or control of the Assembly or the Assembly Government. That strikes the right balance between allowing the Assembly flexibility to put in place arrangements that it considers appropriate for Wales, and preventing any erosion of the important principle of audit independence.
New paragraph 6A in part 2 of schedule 5 provides for an exception to the prohibition on the ability of Assembly measures to modify certain provisions of the Government of Wales Acts 1998 and 2006. That will enable those Acts to be amended by Assembly measure, if the purpose of the amendment is about putting in place the new governance arrangements for the Auditor General.
The competence would also enable the Assembly to transfer functions currently undertaken by its Audit Committee relating to consideration of the estimate of the audit reports of the Auditor General by another Committee of the Assembly. However, it could do so only if the Committee to which the functions are transferred is, like the Audit Committee, composed in a way that is independent of Welsh Ministers and the ruling Administration.
The consequential Government amendment 43 amends the long title to include the proposed amendments to the Government of Wales Act 2006.
I commend the new clause and the amendment to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 24 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.