Counter-Terrorism Bill
Points of Order
8:30 pm

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I come to the House this evening to set out the Government's position on the Counter-Terrorism Bill. The provisions in this Bill have always been about protecting the British people—protecting them from the serious threat that we face from terrorism. My approach has always been to strike the right balance between protecting national security and safeguarding the liberty of the individual. That balance is a precious and delicate one, and it has meant, quite rightly, that our proposals on pre-charge detention have been the subject of intense parliamentary scrutiny. But, for me, there is no greater individual liberty than the liberty of individuals not to be blown up on British streets or in British skies.

We face a terrorist threat that is at the "severe end of severe", and we have proposed in this counter-terror Bill a way in which the police and prosecutors could apply to a judge to enable them to continue an investigation of a terrorist suspect in the most difficult, most complex and most challenging of circumstances. This House has voted in favour of a reserve power, which could be used only where there is a grave and exceptional terrorist threat— [Interruption.]

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

And which would be accompanied by high judicial and parliamentary safeguards. But despite the considered view of all leading counter-terrorism police professionals that these powers will be necessary and should be there, ready for use if needed; despite the opinion of the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, the noble and learned Lord Carlile; and despite the decision of right hon. and hon. Members of this House, the other place has tonight voted to remove from the Counter-Terrorism Bill the protections that the Government believe should be in place—not to amend, not to strengthen, simply to remove.

My priority remains the protection of the British people. I do not believe, as some hon. Members clearly do, that it is enough simply to cross our fingers and hope for the best. That is not good enough, because when it comes to national security, there are certain risks that I am not prepared to take. I am not prepared to risk leaving the British people without the protections that they need, and so instead of reintroducing the proposals for a reserve power in this House, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have taken action to ensure that we have those protections in place, ready to be used if necessary.

I have prepared a new Bill to enable the police and prosecutors to do their work—should the worst happen, and should a terrorist plot overtake us and threaten our current investigatory capabilities. Some may take the security of Britain lightly. I do not. The Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill now stands ready to be introduced if and when the need arises. It would enable the Director of Public Prosecutions to apply to the courts to detain and question a terrorist suspect for up to a maximum of 42 days. Individuals could be detained only when that was authorised by a judge. The Bill's powers would sunset automatically after 60 days. I will place a copy of the new Bill in the Library of the House.

I will continue to press forward with the other important and necessary measures in the current Bill: tougher sentencing for terrorists, stronger powers to seize terrorists' assets, stronger powers to allow the police to remove material that they think is terrorist-related during searches, the power to take DNA and fingerprints from people on control orders, and the ability to question terrorist suspects after charge. Those measures are right. They are necessary. I want to see them enter into force as soon as possible, and I will continue to make the case for them as the Bill progresses.

We cannot defeat terrorism through legislation alone, but where legislation can help to protect the innocent from those who would inflict atrocity upon us, I am steadfast in my determination to do the right thing for the British people. I deeply regret that some have been prepared to ignore the terrorist threat for fear of taking a tough but necessary decision.

Let no one kid themselves that this issue can be made to go away. These are hard questions and tough questions, but however much Opposition Members may wish to duck them, Britain still needs to be protected; Britain still needs to be prepared to deal with the worst. I hope that, when it becomes necessary to introduce this Bill—as I believe it may—we can count on their support.

I commend my statement to the House.

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Dominic Grieve (Shadow Attorney General, Law Officers, Shadow Home Secretary (Assisted By Shadow Law Officers), Home Affairs; Beaconsfield, Conservative)

Let me first thank the Home Secretary for her statement, and for giving me some very short prior sight of it. I hope that she will forgive me if I ask, in view of the very short time that I have had, when she first instructed parliamentary counsel to draft this alternative piece of legislation.

For all the way in which the Prime Minister's spin doctors have prevented the right hon. Lady from saying in straightforward terms that she is abandoning 42 days' pre-charge detention, may I say to her that many in this House, including many on her own Benches, will be delighted to learn of that decision? Can she confirm to the House what happened in the other place this evening? Will she confirm that the Government lost by 191 votes, that 24 Labour peers taking the Labour Whip voted against the Government—including Lord Irvine of Lairg, Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Dubs—and that there were massive abstentions by Labour peers, so that the Government were able to muster only 118 votes from a total of well in excess of 200 peers taking the Labour Whip? Will she— [Interruption.]

Is not the reason why the right hon. Lady has had to make this statement that, as the debate on this matter progressed over a considerable period, the arguments in favour of the Government's measure became weaker and weaker, that the Director of Public Prosecutions, a past head of the Security Service, and many senior police officers and ex-police officers all said that they could not support the measure because it lacked any necessity, and indeed that when the measure came to this House on the other occasion, it was effectively rendered unworkable by the Government's and the Prime Minister's desperate attempts to salvage it? Is it not in fact the case that the Bill was introduced by the Prime Minister for reasons that still appear highly opaque and that certainly raise the taint of party political advantage, and that he then micro-managed it into oblivion by his own endeavours?

The right hon. Lady has presented to us this alternative piece of legislation. I find it one of the most bizarre things that I have ever read. Can she please explain why this measure is of any usefulness when, as she knows, at the start of the process, we said to her that we would be only too happy to co-operate with the Government on an amendment of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 to provide for almost identical powers to be exercised in the case of an emergency? Can she please explain here this evening how the measure that she is putting forward is in any way advantageous over that proposal, which we put to her and to the Prime Minister in complete good faith? If it is so advantageous, why is she not taking the opportunity of amending the Bill to put the measures in it when it returns to the House of Commons, or is it that she knows very well that, when it was submitted to scrutiny, she and the Prime Minister would be exposed yet again for putting forward hollow and unsustainable arguments?

I am afraid that the right hon. Lady somewhat demeans herself when she yet again returns to the argument that those who oppose the Government's measures are weak on terrorism. I have to say to her how profoundly I object to that. We on the Conservative Benches are perfectly prepared to be firm on terrorism, to take resolute measures and, if necessary, to pass difficult Bills, but they have to be credible and based on evidence, and they must not be put forward in a way that smacks of mere political posturing and gimmicks. I think that she knows in her heart, having inherited this mess, that that is exactly what this part of the Bill amounted to, and that that is why it has all come so badly unstuck. The fact that this poorly thought-out measure has gone is greatly to the credit of both Houses, but unfortunately it is not to the credit of the Government at all.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I believe, although it has never been completely clear as we have gone through the process, that the hon. and learned Gentleman has just accepted the premise that, in order for the police and prosecutors to be able to do their job, there may come circumstances, given the complexity of the situation that we face, the danger of the terrorist threat that we face and the international nature of terrorism, where someone may need to be investigated for longer than 28 days before they can be charged. That, of course, is the basis of the Opposition's fig leaf of proposing the use of the Civil Contingencies Act, but if there is one thing that has been completely clear throughout the whole process, it is that every expert who has looked at that Act as a way of dealing with the issue—the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Select Committee on Home Affairs and others—has concluded that it would be wholly inadequate to cover off that risk.

Therefore, we have to come back to whether the Opposition have been serious from the beginning in trying to find a way through this process. Frankly, I set out to try to build a consensus from the beginning to cover off a serious risk. The hon. and learned Gentleman and his predecessor have made no efforts to engage in that consensus building, which suggests to me that, in fact, they were the people who were not taking the issue seriously and who were not willing to look at how we deal with it.

Those who have voted against these measures, both in this House and in the other House, are predominantly, in the vast majority, from the two Opposition parties. They are the people who should take responsibility for the defeat of these sensible and proportionate measures, and in the end, the hon. and learned Gentleman has to ask himself what he would do to protect Britain from the risk of terrorism that undoubtedly exists, and to give the police and prosecutors the powers they will need. I am clear that the interests of Britain's security must come first, which is why I have rightly produced an alternative way of safeguarding those interests. I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends will support those measures if we have to introduce them.

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Christopher Huhne (Shadow Secretary of State for Home Affairs, Home Affairs, Shadow Secretary of State for Justice & Lord Chancellor, Ministry of Justice; Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

Whatever the Home Secretary says, this was a crushing defeat for the Government, because they not only lost the vote in the Lords, but comprehensively lost the argument, and now they are in humiliating retreat. I believe it is an old naval command to say, "Make smoke, beat the retreat", and this Bill is precisely making smoke.

These excessive powers were a dagger-thrust at our hard-won liberties. Does the Home Secretary now recognise that the longest period of detention without charge in any comparable democracy is 12 days in Australia, which is less than half the current period in Britain, let alone what she was proposing? [Interruption.]

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Michael Martin (Speaker)

Order. Members must allow the hon. Gentleman to be heard. It is unfair when Members, particularly on the Front Benches, shout across the Chamber.

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Christopher Huhne (Shadow Secretary of State for Home Affairs, Home Affairs, Shadow Secretary of State for Justice & Lord Chancellor, Ministry of Justice; Eastleigh, Liberal Democrat)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Far from making us safer, which is the Home Secretary's principal contention, will she now admit that her changes, repeated in this new Bill, would have alienated minority communities in the same way that internment alienated the Catholic community in Ulster? Democracies put a torch to their own traditions at their peril, because they abandon the high ground and get down in the dirt where the terrorists want us. Does the Home Secretary now recognise, in failing to threaten the Parliament Act and in putting forward this fig leaf of temporary provisions, that her majority in the Commons was press-ganged by her Whips, and that she had no mandate from her manifesto and no moral authority to press ahead, since her majority is based on just 35 per cent. of the popular vote?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

At least the hon. Gentleman has taken a consistent position throughout this debate. He has never recognised what those who are actually engaged in countering terrorism have recognised is the case: that there may well come a time when somebody needs to be held for longer than 28 days. He has continued to use frankly fallacious arguments about comparisons. In having clear judicial oversight of detention, all our proposals and current provisions in this country are in line with our international responsibilities. We have been through all the approaches in other countries, such as in France with its investigating magistrates, which enable them, in serious cases of terrorism, effectively to hold people for longer than 28 days before they reach the equivalent of a charge.

Frankly, when we are trying to engage in a serious debate about terrorism and the hon. Gentleman reverts, as he has done on previous occasions, to the charge that this is internment when it is fundamentally different, we know that he has run out of arguments and that he is not willing to face up to his responsibilities. I am afraid that that has been the approach that the Liberal Democrats have taken throughout this whole process.

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Keith Vaz (Leicester East, Labour)

The Home Secretary is absolutely right: these are very serious and complex issues, and she has taken the right approach tonight in deciding not to proceed with the 42 days. In respect of the new Bill, will she give the House an undertaking that she will adopt the same approach that she adopted for the previous proposed legislation and that her door will be open to ensure that all Opposition parties will be able to proceed with the Government on the basis of consensus? The best way to approach this issue, above all issues, is for the parties to work together, in order to work as one to defeat terrorism.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I thank my right hon. Friend. The cross-party consideration of his Committee, which of course recognised that there may well come a time when somebody needs to be held for longer than 28 days, has certainly informed the process and much of the content of the Counter-Terrorism Bill. I am disappointed that the serious and considered approach taken by my right hon. Friend and his colleagues on the Home Affairs Committee was not reflected in engagement in discussion by Opposition parties in particular.

The Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill, which I will place in the Library tomorrow, is based fairly and squarely on the approach taken in the Terrorism Act 2006. They are well considered and understood provisions. I will, of course, want to hear any recommendations that hon. Members have, but it is important to say that the provisions have already been fully considered by the House in previous counter-terror legislation and build on the approach to pre-charge detention that has certainly been successful up to now.

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David Winnick (Walsall North, Labour)

I in no way question my right hon. Friend's sincerity, but does she accept that those of us on the Labour Benches, be it in the Commons or the Lords, who have opposed 42 days in no way underestimate the terrorist threat of those people who wish to bring terror and destruction to our country? We know, and they have to be defeated. Does she recognise that the reason why we have opposed 42 days is the lack of any compelling evidence to justify going beyond 28 days? Indeed, two former heads of MI5 have stated that they, too, are opposed to any such extension.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I do not doubt my hon. Friend's sincerity in wanting to fight terrorism— [Interruption.] But when those whom we ask to carry out the difficult job of keeping us safe from terrorism in this country, the most senior police officers engaged in the investigations, suggest—

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

Actually, Andy Hayman did make it clear in his recent article that he believes that there may well be a time when longer than 28 days will need to be used. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can pontificate all he likes, but that is the case. When other senior police officers whom we task with the job say that it is necessary, and serious commentators such as the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation think that it is necessary, I believe that it is right that we as a Government should respond. That is what we have tried to do in both the Counter-Terrorism Bill and the Bill that I have announced to the House this evening.

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Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed, Liberal Democrat)

If this is to be a serious discussion, does the Home Secretary really want to stand by the view that the former Lord Chancellor, the former Attorney-General and former heads of the Security Service have been prepared to ignore the terrorist threat for fear of taking a tough but necessary decision? Surely they actually believe that the measures are not necessary in their present form and could be damaging. She must engage seriously with that argument and not produce that kind of statement.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

The people to whom the right hon. Gentleman refers have been willing to engage in the debate. It is not them that I am criticising; it is his party and the Opposition, who have been unwilling to engage in that discussion.

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Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth, Labour)

Does my right hon. Friend share my puzzlement as to why the number of days has become such a symbolic issue? Is not the real issue the balance between protecting the public and ensuring that power is not abused in respect of the innocent, whether the number of days for which somebody is detained is seven, 14, 42 or any other number? Is that not the advice that we on the Labour Benches have been listening to?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

My right hon. Friend makes a very strong point. Of course, any period of detention beyond 48 hours quite rightly requires the authorisation of the judiciary, as would any period beyond seven or 14 days or that in our proposals. He makes an important point; people in this House have to be very confident that there will be no case in the near future in which somebody needs to be held for 29, 30 or 31 days in order to complete an investigation and bring them in front of the court. I do not believe that people in this House are confident of that, and the fact that they have not been willing to engage in how we solve that problem is at the very least disappointing, and in many cases downright irresponsible.

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David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden, Conservative)

The Home Secretary would do better to recognise that the reason why she has faced the biggest defeat in the Lords in living memory is not that two Lord Chancellors, Attorneys-General, chief constables and heads of MI5 take security lightly, but that they find her proposals unnecessary and intolerable. When she was offered a year ago the option of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, she turned it down in the first instance because she said that declaring a state of emergency would give a propaganda coup—a publicity coup—to the terrorists. Can she explain to the House how having a full debate on a whole new Bill will give any less of a propaganda coup to the terrorists?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

The right hon. Gentleman knows that that is not the case, because he was involved in discussions with me. I just regret that he made completely clear from when we first started these discussions that he had no intention of finding a way to help us deal with a situation that he himself recognises might exist—where somebody needs to be held beyond 28 days. I regret that he felt unable to engage with us in something that would have been deliverable. I hope that if we need to introduce legislation again, as I fear we might, people will engage with that constructively for the good of the security of this country.

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John Reid (Airdrie and Shotts, Labour)

The Home Secretary is right tonight. She is right that the primary responsibility of Government is the security of the nation. She is right that the basic human right of all our people is the right to life and to live their life without the fear of losing it. She is also right to have emergency legislation, as the police have clearly indicated that they can envisage circumstances in which they might need such powers. However, she is also right to seek a consensus and, therefore, not to proceed tonight. The best basis for national security is national consensus, and although it has proved difficult in the past, may I therefore ask her if she will respond to the unrequited measures that she previously introduced by being positive again, and by engaging the Home Affairs Committee and the Opposition parties? If nothing else, that challenges their affirmation tonight that they are willing to reach a consensus on these matters to give security to the nation, and if we do that, we will be in a far better position for the whole House.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

My right hon. Friend, who made very important steps forward in our ability in this country to counter terrorism, makes a strong point. He started this process seeking consensus, and I can certainly give him a commitment that I will continue this process seeking consensus for the good of the security of this country.

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Pete Wishart (Spokesperson (Overseas Aid; Culture, Media & Sport; Ministry of Justice); Perth and North Perthshire, Scottish National Party)

What a cataclysmic climbdown; we could almost hear the gear clunking into reverse. What we have is an undead measure—neither alive nor dead—waiting for the parliamentary stake through the heart. Why the petulant defiance? The right hon. Lady should accept that no one agreed with her, that nobody felt that this was required and that this measure is now lost.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

The responsibility of a Home Secretary is to continue to cover off the risks to this country that are identified to her from the serious threat of terrorism. The hon. Gentleman would have done this country more service had he focused on that, rather than on making cheap points about my presentation.

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Russell Brown (PPS (Rt Hon Des Browne, Secretary of State), Scotland Office; Dumfries and Galloway, Labour)

As someone who served on the Committee that considered the Bill, it became clear to me at a very early stage that consensus was unlikely to be reached in order to get the consent of both Houses to getting this legislation through, and that the Civil Contingencies Act would never achieve what the Bill sought to achieve. Although I fear that we will have to return to this issue at some stage, I sincerely hope that Members of this House recognise that we do not wish to revisit it at a stage where we have lost significant life in the UK as a result of further terrorist activity.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I thank my hon. Friend for the contribution that he made in Committee, where, as he will know, the Conservative party did not table a single amendment to the provisions on pre-charge detention. That is a telling indication of an unwillingness to engage in a constructive process to find a way through this. He is right to say that all of us have a responsibility to find the best way to protect this country at a time when we may well need to extend the tools for those investigating and prosecuting terrorist offences. That is what I have sought to do throughout this process, and it is what I shall continue to do.

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Julian Lewis (Shadow Minister, Defence; New Forest East, Conservative)

Baroness Manningham-Buller is probably the most qualified person in either House to assess the proposals for keeping people in jail without charge for three months. The Home Secretary has accepted that Baroness Manningham-Buller's arguments were sincere, patriotic and couched in terms of the best security for the country. The arguments that Baroness Manningham-Buller uses are indistinguishable from the arguments used by the Opposition Front-Bench teams. Why does the Home Secretary accept one person as patriotic but denounce those of us who agree with a professional such as the noble Baroness as unpatriotic and cavalier about the defence of this country from terrorism?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

Because Baroness Manningham-Buller has a proud record of working to try to find a way through the difficult issues. Although many right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches have in the past taken important action against terrorism, I just feel that they have fallen short in trying to find a way through on this particular issue.

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George Howarth (Knowsley North and Sefton East, Labour)

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the robust way in which she has responded to the vote in the House of Lords earlier this evening. Does she accept that matters such as this one inevitably come down to good judgment, and that, in the end, most people outside this House will accept that she has exercised good judgment and that those who have opposed this measure have made an error of judgment?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I thank my right hon. Friend for those words. I have certainly attempted to approach this matter, as did my predecessors and others, in a way that will enable the greatest amount of information and contribution to finding a way through. I will continue to do that, but I will also continue to put what I believe to be the best interests of the British people and their security at the heart of the decisions that I take.

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Bob Spink (Castle Point, UKIP)

My constituents are in the front line of the terrorist threat in this country, and they will welcome this Bill. Will the Home Secretary continue to press forward to find sensible and proportionate measures that will increase the protection of my constituents and other people in this country from these inhumane terrorists who are threatening and targeting this country right now?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

There have been many ways in the past year or so in which the hon. Gentleman has been brave. He has certainly been brave in speaking up for the best interests of the security of his constituents, in the face of opposition, and I thank him for his continued support.

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Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central, Labour)

Although I understand why my right hon. Friend makes her announcement tonight, may I tell her that once the party politicking dies down, three things will stand out? The first is that she sought consensus across this House and could not find it. The second is that senior police officers and police forces such as my own, which are used to dealing with terrorism, are convinced that the time may well come when more than 28 days will be needed. The third is that she must offer the British public the kind of protection that is adequate to tackle that terrorist threat.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and it is only right that I thank him and other Labour Members for having engaged in such a constructive way in making sure that we safeguard the interests of our constituents. I shall certainly want to carry on doing that, alongside like-minded colleagues.

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Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham, Conservative)

Obviously we acknowledge the importance of this subject, but this House was debating the important issue of democracy and human rights in this country and around the world. Why did the Home Secretary feel it so important to interrupt that debate? Why could she not wait an hour and a half, until 10 o'clock, to make her announcement?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

Sometimes I think that you cannot win in this place. I thought that it was quite important, given the nature of the security issues involved, to come to the House and to make the statement as quickly as possible. Plenty of people turned up to hear me.

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Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North, Labour)

Does the Home Secretary understand that those of us who voted against 42 days did so because we thought that it was our duty to preserve liberties in this country and not to destroy relationships between different ethnic communities in this country? Will she please explain what is meant by the Bill that she will place in the Library tomorrow? Will it be some kind of lurking cudgel with which we will be threatened whenever an emergency appears so that the House can rush through some special legislation? Should she not accept that the principle of 42 days has been comprehensively defeated, both publicly and in the House of Lords, and that it is perhaps time to move on and forget about these excessively long periods of detention?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

I hope that my hon. Friend recognises that the reason for bringing forward the legislation in the first place was a recognition that the best way to defend all the communities in this country is to ensure that we take their security seriously. We are all clear in this House that terrorist atrocities have killed and maimed with no fear or favour when it comes to communities or religious backgrounds, and that everybody needs the sort of protection that comes from counter-terror legislation. I have drafted the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill so that when and if it is needed, we will have those protections in place for my hon. Friend's constituents, for mine and for the rest of the British public.

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Alistair Burt (Shadow Minister, Communities and Local Government, Deputy Chairman (Development), The Conservative Party, Assistant Chief Whip, Whips; North East Bedfordshire, Conservative)

In dealing with the financial crisis, the Government have invested a certain amount of effort and taken a certain amount of political capital out of their efforts in order to produce consensus. It might have been better to have followed that course than to have reacted to the result in the other place in the way in which the Home Secretary has tonight, castigating opponents such as Jeremy Corbyn in the manner in which she has and in terms that she might regret privately. Will she now answer the question asked by my hon. and learned Friend Mr. Grieve and tell the House when the draft legislation that she has produced was first given to parliamentary counsel and when counsel was first instructed to deliver it?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

We started looking at the legislation last week because I was concerned that, whatever happened and whatever decision was taken in the House of Lords, my primary responsibility, which was to ensure that we had in place the protections necessary for the British people, should be pursued.

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Rob Marris (PPS (Rt Hon Shaun Woodward, Secretary of State), Northern Ireland Office; Wolverhampton South West, Labour)

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is inconsistent and unprincipled for Conservatives such as Mr. Grieve and David Davis, as well as organisations such as Liberty, to seek to clothe themselves in the Magna Carta and civil liberties while, conversely, they propose alternative diminutions of civil liberties, such as post-charge questioning, the use of intercept evidence at trial and 42 days' detention under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004? Is not that wholly unprincipled?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

If I have taken one thing from our discussions on the Bill, it has been my hon. Friend's incisive critique at every stage. I thank him for his engagement and wholeheartedly agree with his point.

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Philip Davies (Shipley, Conservative)

We are all aware of how serious the terrorist threat is to this country. If the threat is as serious as the Home Secretary has set out this evening, is she prepared to scrap the Human Rights Act, which is one of the things that stops dangerous threats to this country being kicked out? It is no good her lecturing the House on how the Opposition will not take terrorism seriously if she is not prepared at least to look again at that new Labour shibboleth.

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

The hon. Gentleman might like to have a word with those on his Front Bench—and particularly with the shadow Home Secretary about his views. The proposals in the legislation were wholly in line with the Human Rights Act and the European convention on human rights, so, frankly, the hon. Gentleman is raising a complete red herring.

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Anne Snelgrove (PPS (Rt Hon Ruth Kelly, Secretary of State), Department for Transport; South Swindon, Labour)

The ordinary people of this country look to their elected representatives in this House to provide them with adequate prevention of and protection against terrorism. Will my right hon. Friend assure me and my constituents that she has taken that into account in framing her emergency Bill?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is our responsibility as elected representatives to put the security of the British people at the heart of what we do and to engage seriously in trying to find a solution to some of the most difficult and sensitive issues that we will face in balancing collective and national security against individual liberty. I believe that we had done that in the Bill, but by bringing forward the emergency provisions as I have done, I am ensuring that we are covering that risk if and when we need to use them.

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Philip Hollobone (Kettering, Conservative)

If the Home Secretary's arguments are so powerful and persuasive why does she think there was such a haemorrhage of support from her Benches in the other place this afternoon?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

Let us be quite clear: this House voted for the provisions. Labour Members in majority in the other place voted for the provisions. The responsibility for not being willing to take the provisions forward rests with the Opposition party and they will have to explain to the British people why they did not take this country's security seriously.

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Tom Levitt (High Peak, Labour)

I voted for 42 days in the summer and I would have voted for 42 days again had that Bill come back to the House. Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a time and a place for discussing the relative powers and responsibilities of the two Chambers of Parliament, as would have happened had she sought to use the Parliament Act, but that given the other pressures on the Government today and our other responsibilities, that time is not now?

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Jacqui Smith (Home Secretary; Redditch, Labour)

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is of course also the case that there are other important elements of the Bill—whether post-charge questioning, strengthening sentencing for terrorist offences or tightening up the provisions on asset freezing—that I believe are right and should come into force as quickly as possible. That is why I thought it important to take forward those provisions in this Session and to get them on to the statute book as quickly as possible for the protection of people in this country.

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Patrick McLoughlin (Chief Whip, Whips; West Derbyshire, Conservative)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I very much welcome the new precedent set by the Home Secretary this evening in coming to the House after a defeat in the House of Lords and explaining to the House of Commons the position that the Government intend to take. However, in future, can we make sure that it takes place at the end of business so as not to take time from debates? Can we also ensure that in future we have regular statements every time the Government are defeated in the House of Lords?

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Michael Martin (Speaker)

Perhaps it will help the right hon. Gentleman if I tell the House that it is for Ministers to judge whether they need to make statements to the House. Although I need to be given prior notice of their intention, neither my permission nor that of the House is required, as is made clear in "Erskine May", page 358—[Hon. Members: "Ah!"] Order. I am speaking. The Secretary of State has clearly decided that this is a matter of urgency, but I did say that the Opposition should have a copy of the statement in advance.